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Warning / Advice on Potentially Fake 'Outside IR35' Contracts

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    #11
    Originally posted by eek View Post
    You are missing 2 very simple tricks here

    1) explain that the contract only makes sense if you can claim travel costs, that you can only claim those expenses if the contract is outside IR35 and that until you see the final SDS determination you are not signing any contract nor starting work.

    2) And the reality is that you cannot sign the contract - if the contract is outside IR35, you as the director of your company need to sign it and the contract is to your company, if it is inside IR35 you as an individual need to sign it and your PSC is irrelevant.

    So there you go, 2 plausible reasons why you need a determination before you can do anything.
    Nice, thanks. No.2 is an additional tool.

    One of the better ones to appear in this thread
    Last edited by ElDuderino; 6 March 2020, 20:18.

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      #12
      Requested to the Agency that both Agency & Client confirm to me in writing that the role is outside of IR35 as originally discussed some 4 weeks ago and at every step of the way since then; and to send me the SDS.

      Am told they have an e-mail from the client confirming it's outside IR35 from before they started recruiting for it, and would i like a copy (though they'll have to remove the client name and e-mail address from it).

      Am also told they've literally just this morning asked the client for the SDS.


      An offer of a generic outside IR35 'confirmation' and only now chasing the SDS a week after I've been offered a contract.

      If only I'd listened to myself about never dealing with agents again
      Last edited by ElDuderino; 9 March 2020, 11:11.

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        #13
        Originally posted by ElDuderino View Post
        Requested to the Agency that both Agency & Client confirm to me in writing that the role is outside of IR35 as originally discussed some 4 weeks ago and at every step of the way since then; and to send me the SDS.

        Am told they have an e-mail from the client confirming it's outside IR35 from before they started recruiting for it, and would i like a copy (though they'll have to remove the client name and e-mail address from it).

        Am also told they've literally just this morning asked the client for the SDS.


        So an offer of a generic 'this role is outside IR35' and only now chasing the SDS a week after I've been offered a contract...


        I'm attempting to mentally reframe this as entertainment.
        Why do they need to remove the name of the client - surely you've already been introduced to them so you know who the client is.

        If you don't know who the client is, start looking for something else as this just looks like fantasy...
        merely at clientco for the entertainment

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          #14
          Originally posted by eek View Post
          Why do they need to remove the name of the client - surely you've already been introduced to them so you know who the client is.

          If you don't know who the client is, start looking for something else as this just looks like fantasy...
          I've been interviewed by the client at client's offices, been offered the role and e-mailed a contract to sign.

          The only reason I can think to be 'removing' the client's name from that e-mail is that they have no such e-mail from the client.

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            #15
            Originally posted by ElDuderino View Post
            I've been interviewed by the client at client's offices, been offered the role and e-mailed a contract to sign.

            The only reason I can think to be 'removing' the client's name from that e-mail is that they have no such e-mail from the client.
            Exactly this

            Then hey presto you are deemed inside ir35 after 6th April


            Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

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              #16
              Originally posted by GhostofTarbera View Post
              Exactly this

              Then hey presto you are deemed inside ir35 after 6th April
              Exactly.

              Latest e-mail from Agency asking me to confirm what 'content I am asking for' when requesting to see the SDS.

              Comes with a threat that I'll need to be on site for Wednesday or agency will have to 'make alternative arrangements'.



              3 more conversations later and agent hanging up the phone twice on me, apparently now I'm going to be receiving an SDS. This should be good...
              Last edited by ElDuderino; 9 March 2020, 12:56.

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                #17
                E-Mail from agent says 'I (agent name) confirm that the <role> at <client> is outside of IR35'.

                SDS is attached.

                SDS says:

                'Off-Payroll working rules (IR35) apply'.

                "In the Worker's Duties section, you answered that the worker will perform office holder duties. This means they are classed as employed for tax purposes for this work."


                Going back to my original thread title...

                Be careful out there and ask the right questions, insist on your right to be asking the right questions, don't allow yourself to be bullied, have your arm twisted to sign a contract, don't be made to feel that you are being unprofessional or unreasonable, and don't sign anything until you have asked all the right questions and demanded proof as to the status of the role.

                I realise that's the usual sort of advice people will get on here but I can't re-iterate it enough. This has been some pretty shocking practice from this agent. I suspect the client was going along with it all the way through. That's my next bit of probing to do.

                I'd like to thank Eek once more for the clear and sage advice.
                Last edited by ElDuderino; 9 March 2020, 13:26.

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                  #18
                  Originally posted by ElDuderino View Post
                  E-Mail from agent says 'I (agent name) confirm that the <role> at <client> is outside of IR35'.
                  Just noticed agent spells name of agency wrong in this statement.

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                    #19
                    If it is an office holder role, it will always be inside.

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                      #20
                      Originally posted by fidot View Post
                      If it is an office holder role, it will always be inside.
                      It's probably not an office holder role, as with everything else on CEST the top level description isn't good enough and is biased towards HMRC's "You are using CEST = Inside" mindset.
                      merely at clientco for the entertainment

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