Moving to Dubai

[rogerfederer]

As someone at senior exec level I feel some facts are required for this thread - it stinks of naivety.

TL;DR: Don't move here if you value your freedom and like family links and true friendships.

Dubai is not a free country in which personal freedoms and desires are respected. The notion of anybody staying in Dubai, UAE or Oman as a base is a silly notion, period. Pre-2008 there was a lot of money to be made and some people went to this region to milk the cash cow whilst it was alive.

It (thankfully) died in 2008 and these countries now experience difficulty getting expats in. Why? Salaries and contract rates are far far far down on what they once were, to the extent they don't compensate for the hassle. Are you aware there are often water fees in these countries for accommodation? Huge electricity bills - hello air conditioning unit. These bills swallow up large percentages of expat salaries due to double digit increases in electricity and water costs the last few years.

Jolie, are you seriously telling me you don't have a friendship group and family to keep physical contact with? Dubai and co are not friendly to women. They are among the worst places I've had the misfortune to work and I would simply not recommend it. The main UK 'types' we see there now are people (who often don't understand mathematics) jumping over for an extra £20k on top of their package in basic management jobs who see it is as a Sex and the City lifestyle when obviously (I mean, really obvious) it's not at all this. Think:

*Freedom of speech
*Freedom of political viewpoints
*Freedom of sexuality
*Freedom of hobbies and activities

The countries themselves want to encourage expat communities without reminding you that many people are regularly arrested, not all making the UK newspapers, for trite infractions, such as holding hands, sharing housing with an opposite sex partner whilst unmarried; without even approaching the bisexual/homosexual scenario.

As someone who managed 1000+ people in these areas I strongly advice you not to move there as a base. If you want to temporarily visit then fine, but please think of the type of society and country you wish to contribute to. Unless you are originally from there then you're essentially there because the government wants some cash off you. It's a very unequal society and the governance structure tolerates you whilst they tolerate you. I don't see there being much of a market there in future and in fact the contracting market is now rubbish there anyway.

It's a trade-off between you getting some cash, having a base, easy access to nearby areas (although overall they're worth a holiday if you're into the outdoors, but not living) vs the other side: corruption, intolerable outdoor temperatures during certain seasons. My personal opinion is that living in a confined way changes your brain, to the extent that you may even find such destinations acceptable and you block worrying about anything else. You don't live like that here, so why are you ok with living like that in Dubai?

It's a very unequal society that relies on foreign (expat) advice to keep it going; I know plenty of people who have been for work and wouldn't go back. In thinking about it I know of none who have a desire to go back. I think that says it all, as the contractors on this forum are likely to have at least some fond memories of some countries they've worked in.

Dubai is fake.
Fake friends, fake emotions, fake structural setup, fake rights. This leads to fake relationships (no, not me!) and is a very weird thing to witness when you see groups of pretend 'friends' that are clearly not friends. You don't have this issue in most developed countries being an expat.

If you can handle that, by all means go, but I burst out laughing at your series of posts here as I can't really imagine what bubble you live in that even brought around the idea to move there.


'Reporters without Borders Press Freedom Index':
2019 World Press Freedom Index | RSF

Climate:
Climate of Dubai - Wikipedia

Some basic cost considerations:
The true cost of living in Dubai

The Cost of Expat Living: Average Expenses in the UAE | InterNations

Cost of Living in Abu Dhabi. Updated Prices Oct 2019.


If you still go ahead with this I can only assume you are off your head. I speak as someone who's been lucky enough to work in many varying types of country over the last twenty five years. The irony of this thread? You won't even make all that much money in Dubai, UAE or Oman! Yet you wish to sacrifice the invisible things you surely haven't considered.


One final comment:
To the person extolling India/Bangladesh: LOL!

Private international schooling and generic carbon copy high rise 'luxury' apartments may give you the impression of similar lifestyle to that of fully developed countries, but my advice to those (particularly with children) is not to move to India. Your lifestyle is better in fully developed Europe or Scandinavia. If you prefer the white supremacy of Australia then perhaps even there. There's a close local contracting market out there 1 to 2 hour flight away or eurostar; don't give up on free society for the faux temptation of the middle-easy. It's all lie and the dream died in 2008 - it was just a dream.

[MonkeysUncle]

I went to Dubai for a 2 week holiday some years ago and then ended up going am month after for 4 days for work (working for a uk company with an office in Dubai). The difference was unbelievable.

2 weeks in the sun was great seeing all Dubai has to offer.
4 days seeing how people who live and work in Dubai put me off going there ever again.

I know all cities/countries have a seedy underbelly but in Dubai is was just so obvious and disgusting. What makes it worse I think is the image they portray of this idealistic, religious, friendly place where everyone is welcome (You are....if your an arab). This hypocrisy is just made things so much worse.

On another note I am sure I heard the economy in Dubai is really going down. I know a few people who have moved away from Dubai because it is just not practical living there anymore.

Spending time there enjoying what Dubai has to offer and living and working there are two VERY different experience.

[krytonsheep]

Some of the struggles I've heard of are:

• Paying rent a year in advance
• Having to do 'border runs' so can you remain in the country a bit longer if a work permit hasn't come through.
• Fired with no notice ( it's dog eat dog even if you're working for a Global company).

[rogerfederer]

<snip>
On another note I am sure I heard the economy in Dubai is really going down. I know a few people who have moved away from Dubai because it is just not practical living there anymore.

Spending time there enjoying what Dubai has to offer and living and working there are two VERY different experience.

UAE, Dubai and Oman have been trying to compete and out-do one another. The perfect example of this is: airlines. There was a good reason Emirates appeared to be the best airline, Etihad a close second. However the state of these airlines now perfectly characterises their respective countries. They are struggling to make money after huge plane orders for large planes and have cut fares as a result to attract attention. The laptop ban by the US gave a sour taste to the local rich company owners, who are unsurprisingly no longer choosing to fly to the US.

The expatriate market in these countries is on a downwards trend, with only the naive still choosing to go for a bit of an immersive experience.

Don't even go on holiday there; a stopover for flights is ok for a day or two, but seriously, they are honestly among the worst countries I have had the misfortune to work in. As another poster mentions, it is dog eat dog and I found the way business women were treated and talked about particularly disgusting; this from so-called religious men too.

There is more to life than money and given you won't be even making extra money in these places there is now no reason to go. With their vanity projects (competing as to who has the biggest airline, the biggest mosques, etc) there is even more reason not to go.

I suspect any high end contractor on this forum is capable of enjoying mainland Europe or Scandinavia and resisting any temptation to go to the middle east. Dubai is one large compound.

[cosmic]

UAE, Dubai and Oman have been trying to compete and out-do one another. The perfect example of this is: airlines. There was a good reason Emirates appeared to be the best airline, Etihad a close second. However the state of these airlines now perfectly characterises their respective countries. They are struggling to make money after huge plane orders for large planes and have cut fares as a result to attract attention. The laptop ban by the US gave a sour taste to the local rich company owners, who are unsurprisingly no longer choosing to fly to the US.

The expatriate market in these countries is on a downwards trend, with only the naive still choosing to go for a bit of an immersive experience.

Don't even go on holiday there; a stopover for flights is ok for a day or two, but seriously, they are honestly among the worst countries I have had the misfortune to work in. As another poster mentions, it is dog eat dog and I found the way business women were treated and talked about particularly disgusting; this from so-called religious men too.

There is more to life than money and given you won't be even making extra money in these places there is now no reason to go. With their vanity projects (competing as to who has the biggest airline, the biggest mosques, etc) there is even more reason not to go.

I suspect any high end contractor on this forum is capable of enjoying mainland Europe or Scandinavia and resisting any temptation to go to the middle east. Dubai is one large compound.

Intresting reading the comments.... been offered a 2 year stint in Abu Dhabi for 15k (usd) a month with paid visa and air line travel. They have been calling me non stop for the past week. Very tempted considering it's tax free. If they give me a villa and allow my kids and wife to come over than I might just go over.

On the flip side heard many people talk about how great it is and pays well. I guess it depends which area you work in. Also a friend contracted for 8 years and now came back and bought a massive house with a pool (retired at a young age)

[Jolie]

TL;DR: Everyone’s situation is different, things change, progress is made over time, nowhere is perfect.

Mods: If you consider this reply to be inappropriate for this forum, feel free to remove it or move it to general.

As someone at senior exec level I feel some facts are required for this thread - it stinks of naivety.

Can I just say that I have a lot of respect for the amount of time and effort you put into this post, and any comment by myself that may offend is not intended, so please forgive me, but this is the usual scaremongering and some naivety on your part too.

Dubai is not a free country in which personal freedoms and desires are respected.

And you think the UK is? Especially for women? We are still nowhere near having equality and equity.

Salaries and contract rates are far far far down on what they once were, to the extent they don't compensate for the hassle.

You assume I am going there to contract with the local companies. In that case you didn’t read my original posts thoroughly. I am not interested in salaries and contract rates in Dubai, that was not my initial motivation to move there.

Are you aware there are often water fees in these countries for accommodation? Huge electricity bills - hello air conditioning unit. These bills swallow up large percentages of expat salaries due to double digit increases in electricity and water costs the last few years.

I was and am aware, but again I won’t have an expat salary to worry about, I won’t have rent to worry about. Are you aware that gas and electric bills here are just as high? More on that below.

Jolie, are you seriously telling me you don't have a friendship group and family to keep physical contact with?

Yes, that is correct. You see not everyone lives in the wonderful bubble of marriage, with 2.4 children, a VW Golf and the latest iPhone, with a wide and varied friendship group. There are different people in this world. Let me repeat, I have no family ties in the UK and I have no friendship group to keep me here.

Dubai and co are not friendly to women.

And you think the UK is?

It’s easy to sit behind the keyboard and spout the usual narrative that Dubai or the Middle East in general is not a place to be free and to be allowed freedoms that you enjoy in the UK, or indeed that they are not friendly to women.

They are far friendlier to me than the UK has been. It’s safe to walk about at night, I don’t need to look over my shoulder to make sure the creepy guy behind me is not some crazed stalker.

Unlike this shocking scaremongering, Dubai is actually a safer place that puts their women first.

Life in Dubai for a female citizen… - Discovered

UAE ranks first in world for respecting women | Uae – Gulf News

Think:

*Freedom of speech
*Freedom of political viewpoints
*Freedom of sexuality
*Freedom of hobbies and activities

Some of this I have to agree with, but I am not a political activist, nor I am in interested in the freedom to be abusive and disrespectful to minorities.

I am free there to explore the hobbies and activities that I like to do. I have driven all around the UAE, from Dubai to Abu Dhabi and Ras Al Khaimah through the desert. I skydive and enjoy other outdoor activities. I have more freedom to do those things in Dubai than I have here in the UK.

You honestly believe that we have freedom of sexuality back home? The difference between the UK and Dubai is that it’s legal to have sexual freedom in the UK, but society still doesn’t accept it. People are attacked all the time, stabbed, acid thrown over them, forced to engage in abusive acts and murdered just for their sexuality. In Dubai it’s illegal to openly express your sexuality, but the people are warm, respectful and accepting. There is a thriving LGBT community there. Don’t believe everything you see on the TV.

The countries themselves want to encourage expat communities without reminding you that many people are regularly arrested, not all making the UK newspapers, for trite infractions, such as holding hands, sharing housing with an opposite sex partner whilst unmarried; without even approaching the bisexual/homosexual scenario.

Oh please! Do you know how ridiculous this sounds? I could count the number of expats arrested for such things on one hand. If there was such a problem, there would be “many” expats in custody even now, because as you say this draconian system offers very little in the way of legal rights, holds people in prison for protracted periods of time and attracts the attention of such groups as Detained in Dubai. Do you really think that Dubai, which has the second biggest number of visitors from the UK only to New York, would risk that for “many” expats? It may have happened 10, 20 years ago, but not now.

If you go to Dubai and behave like an idiot, much like this:

Dubai expat jailed for disturbing neighbours; here's what he did - News | Khaleej Times

or this

Matthew Hedges: British academic accused of spying jailed for life in UAE | World news | The Guardian

then you are treated much the same as you would in the UK. In fact, many of the so called expats who broke the law were either drunk, violent, rude, were completely stupid or simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would actually welcome this kind of the zero tolerance policing here in the UK, might actually sort out many of the problems we see on a Friday and Saturday night up and down the country.

As many articles as you will find claiming that thousands of people are being arrested for trivial things, there are just as many saying the opposite. Yes Dubai is not perfect, their legal system is weak and full of corruption, human rights abuses and more, but so is the system in the UK. I would not trust the government, the CPS or the judiciary in the UK from my own personal experiences.

As a UK citizen who abides by the law, is respectful and welcoming, I would be treated with the same courtesy in Dubai:

Dubai Rules & Laws Explained

Unless you are originally from there then you're essentially there because the government wants some cash off you. It's a very unequal society and the governance structure tolerates you whilst they tolerate you.

It’s a very equal society, ranks much higher than the UK on equality, equity, safest places, percentage of income and more.

My personal opinion is that living in a confined way changes your brain, to the extent that you may even find such destinations acceptable and you block worrying about anything else. You don't live like that here, so why are you ok with living like that in Dubai?

Quite the opposite, I live in a confined way here, I will be free of much of the problems that I have experienced here for many years. I am looking forward to that freedom and the opportunities it will bring. I hate it here, the weather is awful, the cold affects my health, the heat of Dubai is something I am used to, having spent long periods in the Middle East, South East Asia and South America. We are entering the darkest, greyest and coldest time of the year, and I hate it, which is why I spend much of the winter abroad.

It's a very unequal society that relies on foreign (expat) advice to keep it going; I know plenty of people who have been for work and wouldn't go back. In thinking about it I know of none who have a desire to go back.

I am happy for them. As I said, everyone’s situation is different. Dubai isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but neither is the UK. For as many people you have heard who dislike it and wouldn’t go back, I know as many who love it, wished they had moved there earlier and have a more fulfilled life, free from the fear of being a woman on the streets of London.

Some price comparisons, based on the websites you have so kindly provided:

Utilities, (Electric and gas) 1 month for two people: 674 AED, £142. In the UK I pay £125 for one.
1 litre of petrol: 2.31 AED, £0.49. In the UK we pay £1.29.
1 litre of milk: 5.86 AED, £1.24. In the UK we pay £0.75.
2 litres of Coca Cola: 9 AED, £1.90. In the UK we pay £2.74
Levi 501 Jeans, AED 248, £53. In the UK we pay £52.
VW Golf 1.4 TSI, AED 100K, £21,194. In the UK we pay £31,325.
Taxi, 5 miles: AED 24, £5.09. In the UK we pay £7.85.
Bottle of wine: AED 96, £20. In the UK we pay £20.
Rent average 85sqm, 7264 AED, £1539.71. In a comparable property in London £1545.

I could go on, but hardly the expensive difference that you and so many others bang on about. And don’t forget, there’s no taxes in Dubai, so the whingers who moan about things being more expensive, not only are they wrong, but they are inconsiderate of the 50-80% living costs incurred living in the UK.

The irony of this thread? You won't even make all that much money in Dubai, UAE or Oman! Yet you wish to sacrifice the invisible things you surely haven't considered.

I don’t plan to make much money in Dubai, the UAE or Oman. I make my money from clients in the UK and my other business and investment interests. I will contribute to a society that is generally more tolerant, warm, welcoming and friendly.

But I thank you for your concern! ?

[BR14]

TL;DR:

well, good luck.
m'a salaam' ah or whatever.
don't let the door slap yer arse on the way out.

[rogerfederer]

Intresting reading the comments.... been offered a 2 year stint in Abu Dhabi for 15k (usd) a month with paid visa and air line travel. They have been calling me non stop for the past week. Very tempted considering it's tax free. If they give me a villa and allow my kids and wife to come over than I might just go over.

On the flip side heard many people talk about how great it is and pays well. I guess it depends which area you work in. Also a friend contracted for 8 years and now came back and bought a massive house with a pool (retired at a young age)

Not taxed at source, but in order to get the money elsewhere you are likely to have to pay UK taxes - assuming you're in the UK now and have the equivalent of settled status with a 'life' here. Just a warning that a very good tax planner is required for this job you mention with a view to you not being back in the UK for any serious length of time in the coming 5 years.

[rogerfederer]

TL;DR: Everyone’s situation is different, things change, progress is made over time, nowhere is perfect.

Mods: If you consider this reply to be inappropriate for this forum, feel free to remove it or move it to general.



Can I just say that I have a lot of respect for the amount of time and effort you put into this post, and any comment by myself that may offend is not intended, so please forgive me, but this is the usual scaremongering and some naivety on your part too.


I don’t plan to make much money in Dubai, the UAE or Oman. I make my money from clients in the UK and my other business and investment interests. I will contribute to a society that is generally more tolerant, warm, welcoming and friendly.

But I thank you for your concern! ?

I snipped your post to benefit those still with 640x480 resolution CRT monitors in this reply.

At least you've thought thoroughly about it and that is what matters.

Ultimately I disagree about the LGBTQ+ status of freedom there and having been grudgingly sent there over the years I can assure you that in the major money industries it's 99.9% men at the top. In the UK we once had similar but recognised we had stunted the ability of women to enter higher roles due to disrespecting their family choice and prejudicing their advancement by the very physical gender they were born with. We're trying to change that and have made progress, but such change takes time, by definition.

I'm afraid the comparison with the UK for female rights is trite and simply wrong; we have a culture of reporting assaults here and are at least trying to improve women's rights. In Dubai, it's simply not even a consideration. I only worked with men and recall one middle manager being a woman a few tiers below whilst working for various financial companies, some of whom have all but pulled out.

Health and safety stats show that Dubai is unfortunately in two classes. I suspect you're ok with turning a blind eye to that if your lifestyle remains good and as much as this is your choice I disagree with your choice, as I've had the misfortune to work in a few countries in which I am oft reminded of just how advanced the UK is. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. The aim is a clear one and I do think we're making progression with female rights and reducing income inequality, although my personal opinion is the current minority UK government have no real interest in resolving this issue.

Living somewhere is, for me, more than a scenario in which I examine my own quality of living and the things I can do every day. There's an aura attached to each place; also the reason I don't live in certain places in the UK.

Good luck with the move, but my advice is to keep your assets in a tier1 financially trusted country in which your rights are preserved and tentatively move over for a few months, coming back or moving elsewhere for (working) holidays before committing financially to it.

A pair of Levi's may indeed be similar cost, but in looking at the micro we sometimes miss the macro environment. There is good reason very few wealthy westerners are moving to Dubai, I can assure you.

Good luck whatever you choose.

[Jolie]

Good luck whatever you choose.

Thank you!

A few things I agree on, and I think you misunderstood. LGBT+ people certainly don't have legal freedom, but they are accepted. There is a scene there that is tollerated and they are not that far behind, although I agree it will never be legally accepted.

Female numbers may not be high on the corporate level, but that is something they are actively changing. One of the links I posted highlighted that the UAE will have a higher number of females in government roles than both the US and UK.

As for assaults, they do happen in Dubai, but are very rare. Yes the UK has a better legal framework to protect gender and sexual abuse, but for good reason, because it's still very much present in every day life here. It simply isn't the case in the UAE. I was physically and sexually abused at work in two different companies here in the UK.

Much of the negativity towards the female gender comes from Saudi and Qatar. The UAE has always been much better, although I agree not perfect.

I have spent much of the last three years on and off in Dubai, so I have already gone through that test. I have taken a lot of time, done a lot of research and pushed things to the limit in order to be sure that this move is right for me.