The applicant will essentially have the following:-

[jamesbrown]

And I say bollocks to you.

I'm not talking about "jobs for life" or "greasy ladders", I'm talking about clients and organisations that are savvy and mature enough to want to employ the services of people who can walk the walk not just talk the talk.

But therein lies the rub, I seem to come across many more people - and almost entire organisations - these days that are filled with those that simply talk the talk. Perhaps it's a scourge of the modern age in that what's valued is what you look like and what you say rather than what you can actually do (Incidentally, I think this explains a lot about modern society hence why we're obsessed with celebrity and other vacuous, superficial garbage). That said, there are some organisations out there, admittedly the number getting smaller, who don't give a monkey's what you say and will judge you based upon what you can actually, genuinely do.

Oh, and the statement about not being able to "teach yourself", specifically with regard to my (and probably your profession of IT) is absolute crap. Classic case in point. I had the misfortune of sitting on a number of interviews for a "graduate developer" position that my client was trying to fill. All the candidates had recent degrees in some computer-related subject. Not one of them - I repeat - not one knew anything about any source control management system (i.e. Git, Mercurial, TFS, etc.). Every single developer job today, even entry level roles, will absolutely require the usage of such a system. After about the third candidate, I was gobsmacked that no-one knew anything about any SCM, until the candidate told me, "They didn't teach us that in university". Wow. Just wow.

Further proves that university (and don't forget, everything is a "university" now - even that tulipty old polytechnic that takes in people that can barely write their own name!) teaches very, very little (and in some areas, absolutely nothing) about what's required out here in the real world.

Finally, just to pick you up on this nonsense:


Care to explain why many of the world's most successful and wealthiest business people didn't get a degree or even graduate from college/university?

OK, I take it back, you clearly do have a chip on your shoulder.

Read SE's post carefully. Going to university is no more about learning some (soon to be redundant) technology than reading a book is about counting paragraphs. Either you didn't go to university (see above ), or you spectacularly missed the point.

Incidentally, I don't work in IT.

[MrMarkyMark]

Uni is about learning to learn.

+1 for me indeed.

I haven't got a degree, but have two degree level qualifications.

Taught me to learn, was very valuable in that respect.

[billybiro]

^^^^^^ This (Sue Ellen's post not Bee's)

Uni is about learning to learn.

I went to a red brick Uni and it got me a job once.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that you need to go through a 4 year degree course in order to "learn how to learn"??? (I.e. pick up a book and read it)

Give me a break.

What next? A 4 year degree to learn how to breathe? FFS.

[MrMarkyMark]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that you need to go through a 4 year degree course in order to "learn how to learn"??? (I.e. pick up a book and read it)

Give me a break.

What next? A 4 year degree to learn how to breathe? FFS.

Embarrassingly so, you can also add learning to use a PC in my case.

Obviously you were a natural.

You couldn't make it up.



PS. I love reading books too BTW.

[Bee]

And I say bollocks to you.

I'm not talking about "jobs for life" or "greasy ladders", I'm talking about clients and organisations that are savvy and mature enough to want to employ the services of people who can walk the walk not just talk the talk.

But therein lies the rub, I seem to come across many more people - and almost entire organisations - these days that are filled with those that simply talk the talk. Perhaps it's a scourge of the modern age in that what's valued is what you look like and what you say rather than what you can actually do (Incidentally, I think this explains a lot about modern society hence why we're obsessed with celebrity and other vacuous, superficial garbage). That said, there are some organisations out there, admittedly the number getting smaller, who don't give a monkey's what you say and will judge you based upon what you can actually, genuinely do.

Oh, and the statement about not being able to "teach yourself", specifically with regard to my (and probably your profession of IT) is absolute crap. Classic case in point. I had the misfortune of sitting on a number of interviews for a "graduate developer" position that my client was trying to fill. All the candidates had recent degrees in some computer-related subject. Not one of them - I repeat - not one knew anything about any source control management system (i.e. Git, Mercurial, TFS, etc.). Every single developer job today, even entry level roles, will absolutely require the usage of such a system. After about the third candidate, I was gobsmacked that no-one knew anything about any SCM, until the candidate told me, "They didn't teach us that in university". Wow. Just wow.

Further proves that university (and don't forget, everything is a "university" now - even that tulipty old polytechnic that takes in people that can barely write their own name!) teaches very, very little (and in some areas, absolutely nothing) about what's required out here in the real world.

Do you know all the crap utilities that exist in IT market? Some of them they change a comma and put a new title? I don't.

The propose of the university it's not to learn all the utilities and all the programming languages, but when I left the course I was able to learn a utility in one day or less. The same with code, if you learn the basic you can catch the others easily. Many ignorances about this subject. If you a are a doctor you need to know the human body if you go to IT you need to know how a machine works.

[SeanT]

You don't do higher education to learn stuff, you do it to learn how to learn stuff...

[Bee]

You don't do higher education to learn stuff, you do it to learn how to learn stuff...

I was a baby when I learned how to learn stuff.

[SueEllen]

I was a baby when I learned how to learn stuff.

Different sort of learning.

If you learn correctly then you realise you never stop learning.

[SueEllen]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that you need to go through a 4 year degree course in order to "learn how to learn"??? (I.e. pick up a book and read it)

Give me a break.

What next? A 4 year degree to learn how to breathe? FFS.

In England and Wales a four year degree tends to be a sandwich course, though I some cases it is a Masters. Anyway in year 3 of a sandwich course you are out learning on the job.

[billybiro]

In England and Wales a four year degree tends to be a sandwich course, though I some cases it is a Masters. Anyway in year 3 of a sandwich course you are out learning on the job.

That's right, I've seen them. They spend all day, every day making the office brews. Some great on the job learning there.