IR35 and client's canteen

[Scruff]

Buy it, personally. No receipt required. No problem. K.I.S.S. principle

[Eirikur]

Wonder why people go to so called subsidized canteens anyway, when very often there is a Sainsburys, Greggs or whatever almost next door selling the same stuff but nicer for half the price and drinks for a quarter of the price

[Criticular]

I know the tax people are a totally different breed, but they do have some common sense left too...

I agree. But when it comes to squeezing more money out of your pocket the common sense is replaced with traffic warden mentality.

[LondonManc]

Wonder why people go to so called subsidized canteens anyway, when very often there is a Sainsburys, Greggs or whatever almost next door selling the same stuff but nicer for half the price and drinks for a quarter of the price

Greggs. Nicer. Hmmmm

[Criticular]

if taxman wants to get you done for IR35 then there is nothing in the world that can stop them doing that.

Well, that changes my perception of reality. The fundamental difference between the UK and say North Korea is that if you obey the law then the government cannot make you do something which you are not supposed to do under this law.
Are there any examples of getting someone done for IR35 regardless of following the rules?

[MrMarkyMark]

Wonder why people go to so called subsidized canteens anyway, when very often there is a Sainsburys, Greggs or whatever almost next door selling the same stuff but nicer for half the price and drinks for a quarter of the price

Certainly not in some of the ones I have been to, depends on the client's you work for, I guess.

Have always kept it simple, like Scruff alluded to and paid it out of my own pocket.

[WordIsBond]

We don't have nearly enough information.

Does the client direct and control what you eat or can you choose from a menu or even order off menu? Do you have the right to substitute salad for vegetables with a main course? Are you obliged to eat there every day or can you decide to eat elsewhere at your discretion? Is the client obliged to provide food every day?

You forgot to ask if the milk in the canteen comes from a cow that MOOs.

OP. If you have a clear-cut (IR35 clean) situation with Supervision, Direction, Control, or with Right of Substitution, or with Mutuality of Obligation, then the canteen is irrelevant. If those things are all a little fuzzy (which is often the case), so that it is a matter of interpretation, it's a pretty reasonable assumption that HMRC will interpret against you. Then, you end up in an argument, where your representative argues one side and HMRC argues the other side. When that happens, things like "part and parcel of the company" become important in tipping the scales one way or another.

And that's where the canteen comes in. If you aren't allowed to eat in the canteen, then it's helpful to your argument that you aren't part and parcel and weren't treated like an employee. But if you are ever investigated, they would probably ask your client if you were allowed to eat there, and if they say yes, then the fact you didn't just becomes your choice, and probably not very helpful.

If your contract says, or you can get a letter, that as a contractor you aren't eligible to eat in the company canteen, or that you have to pay a non-employee surcharge, that would help. But it's really only likely to matter if other areas are debatable. And asking for that letter might make you unpopular with other contractors who are taking advantage of the canteen, so it might not be worth it for the marginal benefit you are likely to gain.

[Milkyway]

Well, that changes my perception of reality. The fundamental difference between the UK and say North Korea is that if you obey the law then the government cannot make you do something which you are not supposed to do under this law.
Are there any examples of getting someone done for IR35 regardless of following the rules?

The highlighted bits there - that is exactly the problem with regards to IR35, hence my comment.
No one in the entire world knows what one can do to obey the IR35 law as you call it (i.e. to be outside).
Every single thing in the IR35 legislation is subject to interpretation and confusion.
No one knows what is the correct meaning of anything under that law, not even HMRC themselves.
This is why they try and bring in some tests (BETs), then they remove it, then they sit and re-think, etc,. etc. etc. and it never seems to end.
There is also a huge big market of lawyers, Insurance companies etc proposing to fight the IR35 cases, insure your tax payments in case you fail the case, etc.
Its a witches brew/nightmare legislation, to be honest.

Hence, all it takes is a successful and clever interpretation by the HMRC lawyers, and any one can be done under the IR35 law.

If you are too unlucky, a simple act of taking free coffee at your client's place can be twisted by HMRC as you being an employee of your client, hence caught under IR35 - this one might be an exaggeration, but they can do it!

[LondonManc]

The highlighted bits there - that is exactly the problem with regards to IR35, hence my comment.
No one in the entire world knows what one can do to obey the IR35 law as you call it (i.e. to be outside).
Every single thing in the IR35 legislation is subject to interpretation and confusion.
No one knows what is the correct meaning of anything under that law, not even HMRC themselves.
This is why they try and bring in some tests (BETs), then they remove it, then they sit and re-think, etc,. etc. etc. and it never seems to end.
There is also a huge big market of lawyers, Insurance companies etc proposing to fight the IR35 cases, insure your tax payments in case you fail the case, etc.
Its a witches brew/nightmare legislation, to be honest.

Hence, all it takes is a successful and clever interpretation by the HMRC lawyers, and any one can be done under the IR35 law.

If you are too unlucky, a simple act of taking free coffee at your client's place can be twisted by HMRC as you being an employee of your client, hence caught under IR35 - this one might be an exaggeration, but they can do it!

They've over-complicated it. It should be simple. There should be a simple checklist where you need to ensure, say, 80% compliance. There are negatives that point to employment rights - sick pay and all the other employment rights - and positives that point to operating as a business - PLI/PI insurance, company website, company stationery, accountant engaged, etc.

[Eirikur]

Greggs. Nicer. Hmmmm

Well most sausage rolls in clientco canteens are soggy and laying around for most of the day, t least in greggs they are fresh.

Tip for the OP: park in guest parking places. Parking in employee spaces will throw you inside IR35 (make a photo every day as proof)