State of the Market

[dx4100]

Alternative take: what you did decades ago is a point on a timeline that indicates aptitude overall, so definitely not irrelevant. Sure, it’s more directly relevant in the years immediately after graduation, but that in turn puts your career on a trajectory. Aptitude doesn’t simply disappear and, like it or not, a top degree from a top university still opens doors. The idea that it’s “entitlement” to provide this context says more about you than the poster. A mediocre career built on a mediocre degree, perhaps.

Alternative take: or how much money mummy and daddy had...

[JustKeepSwimming]

Plenty of companies insist on a Computing / STEM degree for IT dev roles, so I suggest that what you did 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago definitely can matter. Whether the degree you attained 30+ years ago, if any, has any bearing at all on your ability to do the work, is another issue entirely. Yet still they ask for it.

Do they? IME it's HR and only HR who adds 'degree' requirements on to job specs as standard. Unless it's a junior role I don't think hiring managers actually care. TBF I have a degree so I've never been asked about it, maybe non-grads don't make the first cut.

Equally, very senior roles aren't something I'm familiar with, so there might be some kind of barrier, although I think that is more of a class thing. People raised middle class+ seem more likely to have arrogance/confidence than those from working class backgrounds.

[billybiro]

Alternative take: what you did decades ago is a point on a timeline that indicates aptitude overall, so definitely not irrelevant. Sure, it’s more directly relevant in the years immediately after graduation, but that in turn puts your career on a trajectory. Aptitude doesn’t simply disappear and, like it or not, a top degree from a top university still opens doors. The idea that it’s “entitlement” to provide this context says more about you than the poster. A mediocre career built on a mediocre degree, perhaps.

Well, FWIW, in my own personal experience (and yes, I appreciate that's highly personal and subjective etc.), the vast majority of the best developers I've worked with throughout my career didn't have a degree (and many never even went to Uni). They were self-taught people who were passionate enough to continually learn and adapt and had been doing it long enough to really hone their skills.

Whilst computer science fundamentals don't really change, the practice of computing (especially commercially) does. University gives you those fundamentals theoretically. Working in the field gives you the practice. And as Einstein once famously said, "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

[eek]

They were self-taught people who were passionate enough to continually learn and adapt and had been doing it long enough to really hone their skills.

I think when it comes down to IT the chief requirement for a long term career is a willingness to continually learn because what we do is continually changing as software changes or things that were previously impossible become practical as computing power increases..

Some people are willing to continual do that others aren't and that may be the difference...

Also I find arguing with a computer way less painful than arguing with a real person - hence I stick to coding rather than management...

[billybiro]

I think when it comes down to IT the chief requirement for a long term career is a willingness to continually learn because what we do is continually changing as software changes or things that were previously impossible become practical as computing power increases..

Some people are willing to continual do that others aren't and that may be the difference...

Also I find arguing with a computer way less painful than arguing with a real person - hence I stick to coding rather than management...

This is absolutely true, but as someone closer towards the end of my career than the start of it, I think another chief requirement I've learned more recently (at least in my position as a more senior consultative role) is to recognize when the things that are changing are actually nothing really new at all, they're simply re-hashes of the same things that have gone before and often been around for decades.

As we've said, the fundamentals of computing rarely change, but hardware and especially software vendors will always want to sell you the latest and greatest new shiny thing. Sometimes, a real breakthrough does occur, however, more often than not the new shiny thing is the same old theories and techniques dressed up in new clothing. Being able to accurately identify that has been a huge help to me, my career and my clients in the last few years.

As they say, "The more things change, the more they stay the same".

[jamesbrown]

Well, FWIW, in my own personal experience (and yes, I appreciate that's highly personal and subjective etc.), the vast majority of the best developers I've worked with throughout my career didn't have a degree (and many never even went to Uni). They were self-taught people who were passionate enough to continually learn and adapt and had been doing it long enough to really hone their skills.

Whilst computer science fundamentals don't really change, the practice of computing (especially commercially) does. University gives you those fundamentals theoretically. Working in the field gives you the practice. And as Einstein once famously said, "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

Difficult to say whether this is true or not, as I am not a developer, but I doubt it - certainly it's not true in my field, but then advanced degrees are mandatory in my field, so there's no point of comparison. My suspicion is that this discussion is less about what is the best route into a profession and more about some people having a chip on their shoulder. Mentioning an Oxbridge degree is hardly bragging, it's merely a point of reference for aptitude.

[codedbypaul]

Ive been looking for the past 6 months, had an interview recently for an outside IR35 role for a large company which I failed. On what? On the basis of my lack of experience with Kubernetes. I don’t even know what the thing is!

The role was for a lead FE guy. And they desperately need one because their website is not responsive AT ALL. Like, it only works on desktop and it does so poorly.

But hey, who am I to tell them that. Kubernetes FTW! I hope they find their Kubernetes guy and he fixes their website.

My last interview was basically, 'Oh you say you know Javascript, name all the functions'. That and I weren't a good fit due to not knowing every new feature of React 18.

[andromedan]

My last interview was basically, 'Oh you say you know Javascript, name all the functions'. That and I weren't a good fit due to not knowing every new feature of React 18.

Maybe you should use chatGTP voice and outsmart them next time by repeating what they asked and reading the answers... ( obviously, I'm joking, but hey I might be serious...)

[dx4100]

Difficult to say whether this is true or not, as I am not a developer, but I doubt it - certainly it's not true in my field, but then advanced degrees are mandatory in my field, so there's no point of comparison. My suspicion is that this discussion is less about what is the best route into a profession and more about some people having a chip on their shoulder. Mentioning an Oxbridge degree is hardly bragging, it's merely a point of reference for aptitude.

One of the hats I wear is a developers hat (many hats are clearly now mandatory for most gigs lol). I have around 24 years in the job. Seen lots of grads and self trained types. I do find most the self trained types have a limit they seem to hit and can't go beyond. I know two self trained who I would put in my sort of 10% of people I have worked with. But most seem to hit their level around mid to senior developer.

Totally unscientific. Just what I have seen. I still think degrees matter on the whole.

[dx4100]

My last interview was basically, 'Oh you say you know Javascript, name all the functions'. That and I weren't a good fit due to not knowing every new feature of React 18.

I don't think I would have continued the interview beyond name all the functions lol.