State of the Market

[ladymuck]

I get it but having first hand of nearly getting a gig at Freshfields I'd again have to disagree. I didn't get it because the agent wasn't the PSL and the PSL refused to put me forward because I'd already been submitted by the other agent (like WTF?!?!?). It wasn't because of a lack of law firm experience.

Every company has specific software but I guess it's what you are being brought in to do. As a service manager specific software isn't a blocker but I see a lot of application specific roles like ServiceNow Architects or Manhattan developers etc. So that could be an issue with whatever you do but isn't the case for everyone.

Sounds like you got properly screwed by a really crap onboarding process in that instance. You got that far so I'd still keep applying if I were you.

I know some people who worked at Freshfields and they came from retail banking so it's entirely possible, depending on the role. You don't need to have a law degree to put keyboards on a desk...

[Antman]

On the topic of State of the market, there are many contracts being posted now. It's much better than end of last year. Rates are mostly inside IR35 and terrible but one has to survive and I have been having few Teams interviews.
I am now willing to stay away from home and stay at a hotel nearer to my workplace if required, regardless of where the role is in the country. I am also willing to drive. Two things I would have never considered when I was a city boy.

Err, you know you can't expense any travel or hotels on an IR35 contract as you would normally in the good ol' days?

[ladymuck]

Err, you know you can't expense any travel or hotels on an IR35 contract as you would normally in the good ol' days?

But if the numbers work out then it would be silly to not be flexible even if you can't claim tax relief on expenses.

[Destiny2]

Err, you know you can't expense any travel or hotels on an IR35 contract as you would normally in the good ol' days?

But if the numbers work out then it would be silly to not be flexible even if you can't claim tax relief on expenses.

As ladymuck said.
Let's say as an example ... I get a contract in Newcastle paying me £300/day, I am more than willing to stay at a hotel for £50/night. But, if I stayed in London, I could sleep in my own bed but get £150/day.

[eek]

But if the numbers work out then it would be silly to not be flexible even if you can't claim tax relief on expenses.

The numbers won't work out for any remote work.

We discussed this ad nauseam when HMRC tried to apply the rules to everyone (not just umbrella workers) and it's just not economic to work away when you are having to pay expenses after 55% tax prior to paying the bill.

That £100 per night hotel and meal now costs you £225 of your pre tax income. So that £500 contract is now worth £275 a day.

Worse having to pay expenses pushes into the very highest tax bands (£100k and £150k) all of which have other serious tax implications.

[ladymuck]

The numbers won't work out for any remote work.

We discussed this ad nauseam when HMRC tried to apply the rules to everyone (not just umbrella workers) and it's just not economic to work away when you are having to pay expenses after 55% tax prior to paying the bill.

That £100 per night hotel and meal now costs you £225 of your pre tax income. So that £500 contract is now worth £275 a day.

Worse having to pay expenses pushes into the very highest tax bands (£100k and £150k) all of which have other serious tax implications.

Not everyone looks at things that way.

If I can pay my bills, have a few nights out, save a bit of money, then the numbers stack up.

If I can't cover my basic outgoings then, no, the numbers don't stack up.

[eek]

Not everyone looks at things that way.

If I can pay my bills, have a few nights out, save a bit of money, then the numbers stack up.

If I can't cover my basic outgoings then, no, the numbers don't stack up.

And the issue is that for a lot of people the numbers will no longer stack up.

[ladymuck]

And the issue is that for a lot of people the numbers will no longer stack up.

Yes, that is true. That's not the point being made above.

People ARE willing to incur expenses, irrespective of the tax hit / lack of relief, where the numbers work for them.

Your post was claiming that BECAUSE of the income tax hit AND the lack of relief, the numbers will automatically make such gigs unreasonable. However, as Destiny2 says, it's viewed in a more practical sense of 'if I'm earning this much, then I can spend that much on travel'.

Sometimes, letting the tax tail wag the worker dog clouds people into thinking that travel to an inside IR35 job is untenable.

[eek]

Yes, that is true. That's not the point being made above.

People ARE willing to incur expenses, irrespective of the tax hit / lack of relief, where the numbers work for them.

Your post was claiming that BECAUSE of the income tax hit AND the lack of relief, the numbers will automatically make such gigs unreasonable. However, as Destiny2 says, it's viewed in a more practical sense of 'if I'm earning this much, then I can spend that much on travel'.

Sometimes, letting the tax tail wag the worker dog clouds people into thinking that travel to an inside IR35 job is untenable.

The thing is you look at things when sat in London (so for you expenses are a rarity)

Tarbera and myself are looking at this from the prospective of people who have to travel to London and then pay London prices for hotels.

Working 4 days / 3 nights in London for me will cost the best part of £800 minimum (train / flight with an OK hotel and meal attached). That's £2000 in before tax money.

So I am letting tax rule the question as I need to earn £80,000+ just to cover the expenses before I start earning a penny.

[ladymuck]

The thing is you look at things when sat in London (so for you expenses are a rarity)

Tarbera and myself are looking at this from the prospective of people who have to travel to London and then pay London prices for hotels.

Working 4 days / 3 nights in London for me will cost the best part of £800 minimum (train / flight with an OK hotel and meal attached). That's £2000 in before tax money.

So I am letting tax rule the question as I need to earn £80,000+ just to cover the expenses before I start earning a penny.

I'm not. I spent the first 10 years of trading living in Sussex and commuting for hours every day as there's feck all work there. I even had to go to Swindon!

Current gig would have seen me travelling to Nottingham every day / staying over if it weren't for covid.

All I'm saying is that a blanket comment like "you can't claim expenses so don't bother taking an inside gig if you have to travel" doesn't help people who are scared. It makes them think that they have no options. They do have options but they have to do their sums first.