Difference between contracted hours and 'Expected hours'

[acnm]

Pretty much every role I've had has been for a standard 40 hour week with the general expectation that if something needed doing that it would get done. I've never made a big fuss over staying late or doing the additional bit out of hours when needed since it goes a long way to building a good working relationship. I have though always billed whenever there has been a requirement for out of hours emergency work on weekends / public holidays etc.

On the first day of my new contract the line manager called me in to explain that while I was contracted for a 40 hour week that I was expected to arrive before 8am and that I should not be leaving until around 7pm. The company is a very well known organisation that presents a relaxed and open culture that is very appealing, however it is clear that the many contractors they have are treated quite differently to permies. I've seen this difference elsewhere but never to this extent. From an IR35 point of view the degree of control they are trying to exert could be a worry. Anyone had the same?

[sal]

my bigger concern would be that someone asked you to put 10 hours plus 1 hour (for lunch i suspect) for a total of 11 hours, as a norm, when paying for 8 hours of your time. Not the supposed IR35 implications.

The most i had demanded from a client was 1 hour mandatory lunch break, I politely told them it's not going to happen, as i don't need/use more than 30min and they are free to terminate my contract with or without notice if they feel like it, but i'm not going to put with it. At the end they keep signing my timesheets to this day.

[Project Monkey]

Pretty much every role I've had has been for a standard 40 hour week with the general expectation that if something needed doing that it would get done. I've never made a big fuss over staying late or doing the additional bit out of hours when needed since it goes a long way to building a good working relationship. I have though always billed whenever there has been a requirement for out of hours emergency work on weekends / public holidays etc.

On the first day of my new contract the line manager called me in to explain that while I was contracted for a 40 hour week that I was expected to arrive before 8am and that I should not be leaving until around 7pm. The company is a very well known organisation that presents a relaxed and open culture that is very appealing, however it is clear that the many contractors they have are treated quite differently to permies. I've seen this difference elsewhere but never to this extent. From an IR35 point of view the degree of control they are trying to exert could be a worry. Anyone had the same?

No, never. If I was expected to work an extra 3 hours per day every day, then it would be a deal breaker because I couldn't (and wouldn't) do it.

[TheFaQQer]

Pretty much every role I've had has been for a standard 40 hour week with the general expectation that if something needed doing that it would get done. I've never made a big fuss over staying late or doing the additional bit out of hours when needed since it goes a long way to building a good working relationship. I have though always billed whenever there has been a requirement for out of hours emergency work on weekends / public holidays etc.

On the first day of my new contract the line manager called me in to explain that while I was contracted for a 40 hour week that I was expected to arrive before 8am and that I should not be leaving until around 7pm. The company is a very well known organisation that presents a relaxed and open culture that is very appealing, however it is clear that the many contractors they have are treated quite differently to permies. I've seen this difference elsewhere but never to this extent. From an IR35 point of view the degree of control they are trying to exert could be a worry. Anyone had the same?

As long as you are on an hourly rate, I don't see any problem with working the hours and getting paid for them. If the norm is to do three hours of unpaid time every day, then I'd give notice now and leave - saves time and hassle later on.

[acnm]

I'm on a day rate which is why it's a pain. If I were on an hourly rate I wouldn't really mind. I would normally take only a 15 to 30 minute lunch break or just eat at my desk while I work whereas now I actually take the time to go out and will use up as much as possible.

Another oddity is that in general there is a very flexible working environment: almost everyone works from home at least one day a week. I on the other hand am not permitted to. No big deal as although for me it has been really nice when I've been able to do it, it isn't in my contract so I can't moan. On the occasion that I actually needed to work from home this was denied. To put it into perspective I'm one of a growing number of contractors who actually lives outside the UK and I commute in each week. I've always had enough flexibility to allow me to either leave early on a friday to catch my flight home, or even to work one day from home and spend some extra time with my kids. Some degree of flexibility was outlined in my interviews and all pre-contract discussions. What this actually translates to though is that they have finally agreed that I may leave at 4pm every other friday in order to catch the last flight home.

Just yesterday they were commenting that they want me to extend. I'm looking for another contract.

[jamesbrown]

I'm on a day rate which is why it's a pain. If I were on an hourly rate I wouldn't really mind. I would normally take only a 15 to 30 minute lunch break or just eat at my desk while I work whereas now I actually take the time to go out and will use up as much as possible.

Another oddity is that in general there is a very flexible working environment: almost everyone works from home at least one day a week. I on the other hand am not permitted to. No big deal as although for me it has been really nice when I've been able to do it, it isn't in my contract so I can't moan. On the occasion that I actually needed to work from home this was denied. To put it into perspective I'm one of a growing number of contractors who actually lives outside the UK and I commute in each week. I've always had enough flexibility to allow me to either leave early on a friday to catch my flight home, or even to work one day from home and spend some extra time with my kids. Some degree of flexibility was outlined in my interviews and all pre-contract discussions. What this actually translates to though is that they have finally agreed that I may leave at 4pm every other friday in order to catch the last flight home.

Just yesterday they were commenting that they want me to extend. I'm looking for another contract.

From an IR35 POV, it isn't good, but it also isn't decisive (the "when" and "where" are two elements of D&C, which is one element of the overall picture, but they are important and may allude to a more fundamental misunderstanding about your working relationship). I know it's too late now, but I'd state my requirements upfront and have that written into the contract in future. i.e. the "when", "where", "what", and "how" (D&C) as well as the "who" (RoS) are at the discretion of YourCo. Obviously, you have to calibrate these requirements for your situation and client expectations, but you get the idea - the main point being formal agreement upfront.

[BolshieBastard]

Pretty much every role I've had has been for a standard 40 hour week with the general expectation that if something needed doing that it would get done. I've never made a big fuss over staying late or doing the additional bit out of hours when needed since it goes a long way to building a good working relationship. I have though always billed whenever there has been a requirement for out of hours emergency work on weekends / public holidays etc.

On the first day of my new contract the line manager called me in to explain that while I was contracted for a 40 hour week that I was expected to arrive before 8am and that I should not be leaving until around 7pm. The company is a very well known organisation that presents a relaxed and open culture that is very appealing, however it is clear that the many contractors they have are treated quite differently to permies. I've seen this difference elsewhere but never to this extent. From an IR35 point of view the degree of control they are trying to exert could be a worry. Anyone had the same?

My response would have been sorry, I dont work that way. I organise my own time and dont need anyone telling me when I have to be in for or hour many hours I have to do a day.

If you accept what a person says to you at the time, its very hard to change their perception a week or so later. You've got to stand firm and set expectations.

I suspect you're going to have a hard time getting the lead to accept any other work pattern now and you'll either have to suck it up or leave.

[SueEllen]

On the first day of my new contract the line manager called me in to explain that while I was contracted for a 40 hour week that I was expected to arrive before 8am and that I should not be leaving until around 7pm. The company is a very well known organisation that presents a relaxed and open culture that is very appealing, however it is clear that the many contractors they have are treated quite differently to permies. I've seen this difference elsewhere but never to this extent. From an IR35 point of view the degree of control they are trying to exert could be a worry. Anyone had the same?

No because I wouldn't put up with being told that I had to do a 11 hour day as standard. Doing longer hours doesn't make you more productive it actually has the opposite effect and anyone who is a decent manager would realise it. Most companies where people do long hours actually have people spending time doing nothing.

Lots of companies treat contractors differently from permies - it's where the differences lie.

Also some organisations don't let contractors work from home, others let anybody and others let only a selected group of people which may include some contractors.

Anyway next time someone states you have to do longer hours than what is in your contract tell them to talk to your agency first. If the agency then insists on it give in your notice.

[tractor]

Pretty much every role I've had has been for a standard 40 hour week with the general expectation that if something needed doing that it would get done. I've never made a big fuss over staying late or doing the additional bit out of hours when needed since it goes a long way to building a good working relationship. I have though always billed whenever there has been a requirement for out of hours emergency work on weekends / public holidays etc.

On the first day of my new contract the line manager called me in to explain that while I was contracted for a 40 hour week that I was expected to arrive before 8am and that I should not be leaving until around 7pm. The company is a very well known organisation that presents a relaxed and open culture that is very appealing, however it is clear that the many contractors they have are treated quite differently to permies. I've seen this difference elsewhere but never to this extent. From an IR35 point of view the degree of control they are trying to exert could be a worry. Anyone had the same?

I don't think it's a pointer to direction and control, more a disparity between their understanding of what you have been contracted for and your actual contract. Indeed, you are treated so far differently from the permies that HMRC would be very hard pushed to persuade a tribunal that you were 'part and parcel' of the organisation.

To address your point though, clearly the client either has no idea of what your contract contains or is taking the P. I would tell them what you are contracted for (40 hrs) and tell them that you re happy to renegotiate the rate. If it's a case of the upper contract (between the agent and client) is different and places more onerous obligations on you, then you need to fix it with the agent. Sorry but this may mean walking. I would have by now already had this conversation and either had a new, more representative contract or be on the bench looking for another.

Ask the client how they would feel if on day 1, the tables were turned and you were demanding the same day rate for half a day's work?

Hope it works out for you.

[psychocandy]

Pretty much every role I've had has been for a standard 40 hour week with the general expectation that if something needed doing that it would get done. I've never made a big fuss over staying late or doing the additional bit out of hours when needed since it goes a long way to building a good working relationship. I have though always billed whenever there has been a requirement for out of hours emergency work on weekends / public holidays etc.

On the first day of my new contract the line manager called me in to explain that while I was contracted for a 40 hour week that I was expected to arrive before 8am and that I should not be leaving until around 7pm. The company is a very well known organisation that presents a relaxed and open culture that is very appealing, however it is clear that the many contractors they have are treated quite differently to permies. I've seen this difference elsewhere but never to this extent. From an IR35 point of view the degree of control they are trying to exert could be a worry. Anyone had the same?

**** that. And they never mentioned their "requirements" at interview stage?

To be fair, you're approach is spot on. But this is another 2-3 hrs per day. Wouldnt be doing this even if the rate was 25% better than normal.

Would consider walking out the door on this one.

Unfortunately, seen this a few times. Some clients tend to think, contractor costs bucks gotta screw him for what we can. No. Doesnt work like this. You get a 'normal' working day from me.