Hammond in davos

[meridian]

I certainly saw the campaign that won it.

Good thing we voted for a question on a ballot paper then, and not for a campaign, eh? ;-)

[jamesbrown]

Good thing we voted for a question on a ballot paper then, and not for a campaign, eh? ;-)

Oh, but we voted for a campaign, absolutely. Absent the context of the campaign, the ballot paper holds little meaning. Nobody votes in a vacuum, not even remainers.

[meridian]

Oh, but we voted for a campaign, absolutely. Absent the context of the campaign, the ballot paper holds little meaning. Nobody votes in a vacuum, not even remainers.

A campaign is neither the vote, nor is it binding on any parliament, nor is it a government manifesto. Context is one thing, but the ballot paper is all that counts. And it’s advisory, anyway. All the voters have done is express an opinion, not a binding mandate.

[woohoo]

No confusion from me at all about what was on the ballot paper.

This is what you said just above:



The ballot question was “Leave the European Union”

- Norway is not a member of the European Union

- Norway _is_ a part of the single market (through the EEA, _not_ the EU)

- Norway accepts Freedom of Movement.

Gosh you are easily confused. If I was you I would have voted to remain.

If you wanted or didn't want a Norway model but where so concerned of the uncertainty that a yes vote would bring then your only option is to vote to remain. How are you confused?

[meridian]

Gosh you are easily confused. If I was you I would have voted to remain.

If you wanted or didn't want a Norway model but where so concerned of the uncertainty that a yes vote would bring then your only option is to vote to remain. How are you confused?

Nothing to do with the voting model, I simply quoted exactly what you said about leaving the EU requiring that we also leave the single market, and pointed out an exact instance where that is incorrect.

Sorry that you can’t deal with those facts.

[jamesbrown]

A campaign is neither the vote, nor is it binding on any parliament, nor is it a government manifesto. Context is one thing, but the ballot paper is all that counts. And it’s advisory, anyway. All the voters have done is express an opinion, not a binding mandate.

Semantics. But it really doesn't matter what you or I think about the interpretation of referenda or votes more generally, because the gov't at least broadly understands the point that I'm making here by rejecting Norway as an option.

Still, all the gov't is likely to deliver is an option to diverge, without binding future governments. They interpret control as an option, if you read between the lines. This is a reasonable interpretation. The actual shape of Brexit won't be known for a long time. But it won't be Norway, because the EEA doesn't offer the option for divergence, i.e. it delivers less control than membership. Membership is better than Norway, on which many leavers agree.

[woohoo]

Nothing to do with the voting model, I simply quoted exactly what you said about leaving the EU requiring that we also leave the single market, and pointed out an exact instance where that is incorrect.

Sorry that you can’t deal with those facts.

Silly billy.

[northernladyuk]

I think it was pretty clear.

Leave the EU. You have to leave the custom union and the single market. A pillar of the single market is freedom of movement.

I really can't see the confusion.

You are confused. You don't have to leave the customs union and the single market on leaving the EU. Why do you think otherwise?

[NotAllThere]

Leave the EU. You have to leave the custom union and the single market. A pillar of the single market is freedom of movement.

• Your proposition: Leaving the EU entails leaving the customs union and the single market, and giving up freedom of movement.
• Norway is in the customs union and the single market and has freedom of movement, but isn't in the EU.
• Ergo your proposition isn't correct. Leaving the EU does not entail leaving the customs union and the single market and giving up freedom of movement.

I think the issue is that you look at the phrase "leaving the EU", and to you that means "leaving the customs union and the single market, and giving up freedom of movement.", but that's just one possible meaning. Another possible meaning would be "withdrawing from membership of the EU and switching to the Norwegian model".

The things is, no politician appears to have stated in clear terms what leaving the EU will entail. I think this quite deliberate on their part. I also think that the end result will disappoing many Brexiters, because they won't be getting what they thought they were.

[tarbera]

What the everyone else thinks of the uk summed up nicely

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/2...european-union