Time allowed from the first invoice and business registration

[ASB]

Riccardo.

Drop the analogies. They do not really correlate.

It is broadly the case that liabilities cannot be transferred up the chain. However there are ways and it is minor risk. Fraud and collusion would do it.

However being self employed is not a matter of saying "I am self employed, this work will be 1,000". It is a matter of the work etc that is done. The conditions it is done on and a variety of similar things.

The problem that arises is that in the event of these being failed you will be regarded as the clients employee and they will be taxed accordingly.

As a result of this clients can be reluctant to use self employed people because of the risk.

There are also pieces of legislation that prohibit people providing services on a self employed basis. Largely where there are intermediaries involved.

Now you can bleat as much as you want about it. And the fact that it differs in Italy. You can complain it impinges your right to free movement etc.

Or you can accept that this is what happens in practice.

[Riccardo]

Drop the analogies. They do not really correlate.

So, can you explain a practical scenario?

It is broadly the case that liabilities cannot be transferred up the chain. However there are ways and it is minor risk. Fraud and collusion would do it.

This is completely another problem. It's more like talking about a self-employed that kills a person and his friends can expect to be interrogated by the Police. That's quite normal. The same about fraud and collusion. That's the same in Italy.

However being self employed is not a matter of saying "I am self employed, this work will be 1,000". It is a matter of the work etc that is done. The conditions it is done on and a variety of similar things.

??? Sorry, it's too vague for me, I can't understand what are talking about.

The problem that arises is that in the event of these being failed you will be regarded as the clients employee and they will be taxed accordingly.

Under what specific circumstances I'll be regarded as the employee of a client?
If the plumber come to my house becomes my employee? I don't think so.
I think it's not even a problem if I sell a software package or a website, or a service on a website, etc.

The problem you're talking about without examples, I suppose, could probably arise in cases more similar to being hired, e.g. the outsourcing (?).

There are also pieces of legislation that prohibit people providing services on a self employed basis.

What legislation? Can I have a link or law articles?

Now you can bleat as much as you want about it. And the fact that it differs in Italy. You can complain it impinges your right to free movement etc.

I'm not complaining a tube! How do you say in english: "I don't care it's not my case, we are just talking"?
We are talking of ltd/S.E., only to exchange information and only because someone introduced the problem, NOT ME. It's just for curiosity.
That you call bleat is normally called intercultural exchange.
If you read the title the question it's not about differences with Italy, differences about LTD and S.E., etc.. I didn't introduce those other problems BUT I'm interested anyway for curiosity and for the future.
We started to talk in a civilized manner about the subject, even if it's not something that involves me directly (for now). Is this a problem for you nervous system?

I'm interested in every pro and cons for a future choice so, since you're speaking about bleat, if you can links laws and facts instead of rumors and theory it will be very appreciated.

Kind regards!

[DirtyDog]

16

[ASB]

Riccardo,

The problem with your analogies is about risk. And the risk falls onto the buyer.

It is compounded by the fact that you are selling services not goods and services.

So, you knock up a website for me. The possibility exists that HMRC could view that as an employment type relationship. Peruse HMRC employee status manuals.

If this were to happen then the fall out from that would rest with me. I could, potentially, be assessed as liable for tax on that. The amount paid would be viewed as a net salary payment.

There are also regulations which do - under certain circumstances - allow for the transfer of liabilities. However, these are only normally effective in very limited circumstances (in your case, assuming you have done self employed work then it is unlikely they would be attempted). But the risk would be trying to interpret the arrangements the services were provided under as an employment relationship.

Now, I don't know how you get your work. But, the fact remains, that as a result of this, a lot of companies are reluctant to use the services of self employed individuals. Particularly where they are large chunks of work, rather than a quick fix.

It is the crossover between personal service being required and engaging a firm to do a job that causes the issues. Another issue is who is controlling the relationship.

Various pointers will help. e.g. fixed price work. Substitution. Multiple clients.

As it happens, I believe an individual should be able to provide self employed services with no real restrictions. You do genuinely sound like you are trying to build a client base etc.

But the odds are stacked against you. If you get approached by a large company they are likely to be nervous about you being self employed. If it is a small company, likely far less so.

You may also use some sort of agency; in the middle of the client chain. There are, in effect, pieces of legislation that will outlaw self employed -> agency -> end client.

Also, use of the word "bleat" was possibly a bit harsh. The fact is that people have tried to explain the situation, it is obviously not as you expect, and different from that you are used to. It's the way of the world.

When I am working in various different parts I expect to have to abide by their rules and practices - even when they are different from those I am used to and don't fit in with I traditionally do.

I do wish you luck though (and by the way if you incorporate a company and operate through that the probability is that you will pay less in taxes etc overall than if you were self employed).

-------------------------------------

Some of these might prove helpful, but the basic problem is that you can't say (as somebody engaging you) "if the contract says A, B, C then you will be self employed". Only that you might be. HMRC always has the power of challenge and consumers of your services may not be keen to take on that risk.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/esmmanual/esm7009.htm
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/esmmanual/esm7000.htm

[Riccardo]

Thank you ASB, I appreciate your reply very much because it's the most comprehensive I've heard here.

Also, use of the word "bleat" was possibly a bit harsh. The fact is that people have tried to explain the situation, it is obviously not as you expect, and different from that you are used to. It's the way of the world.

I don't know why, but it seems I give the impression that I don't accept new rules and I'm complaining something because I don't like it, is it? If that's the case there's something wrong in the communication, and that's confirm I'm right not to try to trade in the UK ahead of time.... where "time"=comprehension not only of the english language/accents, but also of the english mentality. You can't imagine how far is the english language from the italian one. It's a very hard work. Every phrase is an adventure!

I write a lot trying to cope with misunderstandings using short sentences giving a better explanation, but probably it doesn't work very well.

I must highlight that I'm interested in everything, everyone of you say, (even the insults are appreciated because I learn how to do the same! ). Do you remember the Robot of the movie "short circuit" saying "input! input!"? That's me! I'm here to learn.
I'm sorry someone takes my words as a lack of respect, bleat, and so on, but really my questions are pure interest on things.

By the way, how could I complain something if I'm not involved in the problem?
I have the impression that it's not clear (but in this case I think that's not my bad because I've written it down 1000 times in this thread) I don't have to chose ltd vs s.e.

I'm only surveying/investigate because someone in the first posts expose the problem and caught my attention on this subject... that is not what I was asking for but it is however interesting to know.

At worst I could doubt that someone speaks really knowing what he's talking about, but I can't complain anything because I'm not in the situation for which X or Y makes any difference for me (maybe in the future).

Let's explain me the situation even better: If an english company ask me to do something, 99% I'll refuse that because I have no time. So ther's no problem for me about what a UK company think about self-employed. I'm interested on this topic only for knowledge.

If I doubt something, it's only because I want to know more nto because I dare you or something similar. Don't forget I've been analyst and developer for 35 years and I was making software in assembler language when I was 9 adn I've spend zillions of hours alone with computers, so my brain it's quite altered by my profession and it has a different view of the world. I'm not easily satisfied with vague replies the same way you can't satisfy a computer telling it "Please make some additions".

That's why this thread to me looks like
guy: "The addition has less problem"
me: "What kind of addition?"
guy: "The addition using the symbol +"
me: "with which number?"
guy: "some numbers"

and to other looks instead like
guy: "the addition has less problems"
me: "what kind of addition?"
guy: "You bastard don't believe me! Go back to Italy!"

It's only a problem of communication, not only because I write a bad english but mainly because the same "territory" has a different "map" for us (NPL).
Add the problem of my personal need of lots of details, and we have a big problem.

Replying to me vaguely could result in 200 years of answer and reply.
I realize that, and for counterpart sake I generally stop questioning to avoid problems (like the ones are arising here).
You have a lower threshold so I must adjust the number of time I can ask and ask and ask again.... or accept of being insulted as I sign I have to stop asking.

However, asking for details do its job because your reply is miles away from the first replies!

Various pointers will help. e.g. fixed price work. Substitution. Multiple clients.

OK, so basically the more one is far from being framed as a hired person, the best.

As it happens, I believe an individual should be able to provide self employed services with no real restrictions.

OK

But the odds are stacked against you. If you get approached by a large company they are likely to be nervous about you being self employed. If it is a small company, likely far less so.

OK. Point taken.

You may also use some sort of agency; in the middle of the client chain. There are, in effect, pieces of legislation that will outlaw self employed -> agency -> end client.

OK. I have a relative that was an important figure at the IBM (he worked even at NASA) that do the kind of service you're talking about. It's a human resource management company that work even for Microsoft. I did his website many years ago.

When I am working in various different parts I expect to have to abide by their rules and practices - even when they are different from those I am used to and don't fit in with I traditionally do.

Obviously, I agree 100% and I'm very, very sad and sorry I don't give that impression because I'm willing not only to be resident but to become a UK citizen, and more than that, I'd like being able to send and receive thoughts and emotions the right way.

I do wish you luck though

"though"...

Some of these might prove helpful

Thank you so much to you and everybody.


Extra business help
Since It's a question not business related, I don't open another thread for this.
If someone has time to reply will be very appreciated as usual.

(1)
If my wife don't work and don't need to find a job because at the moment is in full immersion studying english (differently from me she starts really from scratch), is it usefull for her having a NINO?

(2)
Has she to compile some form, make some self assessment, etc. to state she has no income or that's the default?


See ya!

[ASB]

Riccardo,

There is nothing to stop you:-

1) Being self employed, declaring that information and associated income and expenses on your self assessment tax return.

2) Incorporating a company if/when you need it. You can work through this company as required.

Obviously there and implication of both but you can do them both. Lots of people have more than one job, do some self employed work etc. However if you are genuinely self employed then your overall tax burden is likely to be lower through route 2.

Equally there may be occasions when some of the work you do through your company is "ir35" caught. This has implications in that it must effectively be paid as salary rather than dividends which increases the tax take.

In terms of a NINO I do not believe your wife will actually HAVE to have one. But it seems likely that pretty soon one or the other of you will do something which requires here to get one. You should be able to fit this pretty well to your specific circumstances:-

HM Revenue & Customs: Applying for a National Insurance number

[Riccardo]

I'm a bit late because I was in Italy: thanks for the info and your patience.