New IR35 Guidance hot off the presses

[Sockpuppet]

I may be wrong here but the final paragraph :



Is wrong isn't it? IR35 was set up to prevent employers taking advantage of employees by firing them on Friday and hiring them again as contractors on Monday, thus avoiding NI and payroll costs?

Or am I missing something?

Two sides of the same coin.

[GeekyGrandad]

How long do you think it will be before HMRC take refusal to complete them as a clear reason to investigate.

I don't think that there is any doubt that the P35 questions will be changed to simply ask for the business test completion GUID. This effectively makes them compulsory by the back door!

[GeekyGrandad]

Point of Order

Fair point Sockpuppet - the tax payer should be able to rely on legal precedent but IR35 status determination is linked in to employment as well as tax law which means that there are new legal precedents every day and they won't all be IR35 cases.

I think you should put your idea to HMR&C but I should warn you that it is both reasonable and fair so is therefore unlikely to be taken up

Point of order. IR35 status is determined solely on EMPLOYMENT LAW using the standard "employee" tests of MOO, D&C etc., so that by DEEMING you an employee, you can then be caught by IR35. If HMRC were unable to "deem" then IR35 would die.

What really needs to be worked on now is to remove that power from HMRC. We need to get tribunals to throw out any cases where, if there is no mutually accepted and reciprocal CONTRACT OF EMPLOYMENT between the worker and engager, then there can be no case to answer. End of.

[psychocandy]

So, when the letters start dropping, the first reaction should still be to call PCG or Qdos for their guidance?

I'm currently a PCG member so get the basic coverage, but, following this possible increase in IR35 activity is anyone in same situation:-

1. Upgrading to PCGplus (Can you even do this mid-year?)
2. Paying for QDOS complete package (£360 a year and they pay fines and tax too)
3. Sticking with PCG

And what about those of you who have nothing?

[psychocandy]

That's what I'll be doing - I pay both of them, so one of them can deal with the whole thing.

Why pay for both? OK Fair enough if you think the PCG membership on its own is worth the money but surely you;re paying twice?

[psychocandy]

Only problem with that is that it's now up to the individual to provide 'evidence' that they are outside IR35 - it won't be a matter of negotiation until HMR&C have decided that you're not.

This isnt the way I read it. It looked to me like HMRC were trying to get people to fill in the stuff but I dont see where it says you cant operate as a business until you get their permission?

[psychocandy]

Careful... Kate Cotterel pointed out that they do now generally win their cases. Though statistics show there aren't many cases. That doesn't include the cases that settle before the case gets to court.

The message is they now feel confident that they know who they can knobble. So it's a matter of making sure your defences are in place and note that you are now dealing with an experienced opponent.

If you're floating around on a longterm contract I think you're a prime candidate.

In the past you didn't need to worry too much about being a high risk candidate, because the chances of investigation were low, but now you do.

I presume if you have insurance you probably aren't a high risk candidate anyway.

Interesting to see if the ones HMRC targeted are those without QDOS/PCG insurance/backing ?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Point of order. IR35 status is determined solely on EMPLOYMENT LAW using the standard "employee" tests of MOO, D&C etc., so that by DEEMING you an employee, you can then be caught by IR35. If HMRC were unable to "deem" then IR35 would die.

What really needs to be worked on now is to remove that power from HMRC. We need to get tribunals to throw out any cases where, if there is no mutually accepted and reciprocal CONTRACT OF EMPLOYMENT between the worker and engager, then there can be no case to answer. End of.

Good luck with that

[jamesbrown]

I'm currently a PCG member so get the basic coverage, but, following this possible increase in IR35 activity is anyone in same situation:-

1. Upgrading to PCGplus (Can you even do this mid-year?)
2. Paying for QDOS complete package (£360 a year and they pay fines and tax too)
3. Sticking with PCG

And what about those of you who have nothing?

The PCG+ is good value for money anyway and one can refer any enquiry at the point of contact.

I don't see the point of having additional insurances. In fact, I would imagine you'll void a claim under PCG+ if you have other insurances in place. Best to decide on one or the other, I'd say.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Just seen this bit (page 9) - HMR&C specialists can review a contract for you....if you are found to be outside IR35 they will give you a certificate valid for 3 years