No To Retro Tax – Campaign Against Section 58 Finance Act 2008

[growler]

Obviously I would very strongly frown upon any hiding of assets, that wouldn't be 'fair'...

Nevertheless, an excellent situation. I think 'gambling all the money away in Vegas' is exactly what people should (and realistically will) do if this process will make them bankrupt anyway.

End result, HMRC get zero. Victim is no worse off.

Now, if HMRC want any money from these people, perhaps they should offer some reasonable terms, i.e. No interest or NI and a decent discount. That way, less people will feel it's a hopeless case and the light at the end of the tunnel might make them tighten their belts to pay up and get through this, rather than simply blowing it all in despair, or doing various other things with their money....

I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece

[screwthis]

a friend of mine remortgaged his house to the limit a while back (no equity in it now so not worth repossessing) - 'spent' the cash, also took legal advice as he works for banks in the city - apparently so long as he's not too close to the money (he isnt!) then should be ok if hmrc make him bankrupt.

Not sure what the downside is for him?

Interesting. I would expect it isn't possible to remortgage to 100% LTV so there will be something left in the house especially as the market has been climbing.

If you declare yourself bankrupt what does that mean? Creditors still have a claim on your remaining assets but not assets you amass later after a period of time (once the bankruptcy has gone through court)??

[slogger]

Interesting. I would expect it isn't possible to remortgage to 100% LTV so there will be something left in the house especially as the market has been climbing.

If you declare yourself bankrupt what does that mean? Creditors still have a claim on your remaining assets but not assets you amass later after a period of time (once the bankruptcy has gone through court)??

think he did it to about 90%, the remaining 10% goes nowhere near his liability, also when you factor in sales costs etc his hope is its not worth repossessing it.

[growler]

That's my understanding, I might be wrong though.

In general, what HMRC/government are doing is: "what can we _get_away_ with that's best for us?" Forget rules, laws, etc. because they don't really matter. We should be operating on exactly the same principle objective function - what is best for them, not what is best for us.

What would hurt the government and HMRC the most? Raising no capital, losing 65,000 voters and the publicity of bankrupting families? Maybe there is a worse outcome for them I haven't thought of!? If so, that should be our target.

Whatever we imagine the worst outcome for them to be, is 100pct where we should focus our efforts, regardless of rules, fairness or anything else. It's how they play things and we are fools if we feel bound any differently.

Sun Tzu would agree with me.

I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece

[DonkeyRhubarb]

What would hurt the government and HMRC the most? Raising no capital, losing 65,000 voters and the publicity of bankrupting families? Maybe there is a worse outcome for them I haven't thought of!? If so, that should be our target.

It is the Govt, not HMRC, driving this.

Supposedly, only 43,000 out of the 65,000 will receive APNs. The majority will probably be natural Tory voters. I would expect family members of those affected to also switch allegiance.

Whilst not a huge number of votes, they are likely to be concentrated in a few dozen constituencies. It will have an effect but probably not a decisive one. (The Tories would not have proposed it if it would seriously affect their election chances )

When presented with an APN many people will pay up to avoid penalties. It will bring in a few £billion, even if there are a significant number who can't pay.

AP is almost certain to face a legal challenge which may delay it's implementation. It may be that there are no bankruptcies this side of the election.

There isn't much time to try and stop the legislation because it will probably be debated and voted on in the FBC this month.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

65,000 people making a donation to UKIP ?

[BeenGauked]

Obviously I would very strongly frown upon any hiding of assets, that wouldn't be 'fair'...

Nevertheless, an excellent situation. I think 'gambling all the money away in Vegas' is exactly what people should (and realistically will) do if this process will make them bankrupt anyway.

End result, HMRC get zero. Victim is no worse off.

Now, if HMRC want any money from these people, perhaps they should offer some reasonable terms, i.e. No interest or NI and a decent discount. That way, less people will feel it's a hopeless case and the light at the end of the tunnel might make them tighten their belts to pay up and get through this, rather than simply blowing it all in despair, or doing various other things with their money....

I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece

If you're going bankrupt, may as well max out the credit cards so there's less for HMRC to collect.

Of course, it's a criminal offence to recklessly dispose of creditors money. Nothing to stop you spreading your debt around so HMRC get less though.

[handyandy]

a friend of mine remortgaged his house to the limit a while back (no equity in it now so not worth repossessing) - 'spent' the cash, also took legal advice as he works for banks in the city - apparently so long as he's not too close to the money (he isnt!) then should be ok if hmrc make him bankrupt.

Not sure what the downside is for him?

The downside is that he won't find himself working for 'banks in the city' fir quite a long time as the majority of them do fairly extensive pre-employment checks (and they apply these to contractors and umbrella temps too) including a full bankruptcy and CCJ search. The theory is that banks need to be such pillars of probity and trust that no one working for them should have any financial troubles as this could be a motive to use their position in the bank for fraudulent purposes.

Your friend may also find that a bankruptcy could impact him trying for contracts/jobs in other types of company too. And don't forget that bankrupts can't be company directors until well after they are discharged so it does then limit options for contracting.

Not saying it isn;t right for some people but not a zero impact get out of jail free card either.

[SantaClaus]

The downside is that he won't find himself working for 'banks in the city' fir quite a long time as the majority of them do fairly extensive pre-employment checks (and they apply these to contractors and umbrella temps too) including a full bankruptcy and CCJ search. The theory is that banks need to be such pillars of probity and trust that no one working for them should have any financial troubles as this could be a motive to use their position in the bank for fraudulent purposes.

Your friend may also find that a bankruptcy could impact him trying for contracts/jobs in other types of company too. And don't forget that bankrupts can't be company directors until well after they are discharged so it does then limit options for contracting.

Not saying it isn;t right for some people but not a zero impact get out of jail free card either.

The irony is that banks are corrupt as hell. They are happy to break the rules if it makes money, until they are found out. Then they find a scapegoat to sack, and it's business as usual.

Rinse and repeat, ad infinitum...

[growler]

65,000 people making a donation to UKIP ?

Interesting. As you say, many of the 65k people are in a concentrated area. If a large number voted UKIP it might mean something due to that concentration.

Someone previously asked where UKIP stood on retro, do we know? If it's the right side we could do both a) ask everyone to vote UKIP, b) inform UKIP of the votes available to allow them to market on this point.

If we could identify the most concentrated area, and it was suitable in other regards, that might be the best one for Farage himself to stand in.

Anything to f*&k Cameron.

Any other ideas to throw around?