IR35 direction/control for a software developer

[JoJoGabor]

Another example that was given some time back was working a support rota. If the role dictates that support must be provided 24 hours and you take shift patterns, i think it was agreed this was a necessity of the role. What are the opinions on this scenario? Has it ever been tested?

This reminds me of the episode of the simpsons when Bart was asking his Sunday school teacher about what would happen when he got to heaven...

"If I lose a leg on earth, will I get it back in heaven?"
"Will my dog be there who I love, even though he has been bad and has gone to hell?"

[SueEllen]

Another example that was given some time back was working a support rota. If the role dictates that support must be provided 24 hours and you take shift patterns, i think it was agreed this was a necessity of the role. What are the opinions on this scenario? Has it ever been tested?

As someone doing support you take tasks (or whatever you call it) during your shift.

How you do those tasks will be up to you as long as you meet any time requirements in dealing with them.

I haven't met anyone doing support in the UK apart from people learning the role who are told exactly what to do. In most jobs in the UK where you deal with people there is a bit of autonomy, which is one of the reasons why customer service is so awful.

This reminds me of the episode of the simpsons when Bart was asking his Sunday school teacher about what would happen when he got to heaven...

"If I lose a leg on earth, will I get it back in heaven?"
"Will my dog be there who I love, even though he has been bad and has gone to hell?"

Animals apparently don't have souls so you won't see them in heaven.

[centurian]

It's also worth understanding what is meant by "control" - check out the new Allianz ruling

http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.go...76/TC01603.pdf

Selected snippets

But whilst Mr. Spencer was undertaking the project for which he was specifically engaged, we
consider that he was using his expertise in a manner that could not be controlled in the
sense of “how” he did his work. The control was therefore limited.

By breaking the link with projects, and indicating that Mr. Spencer would work generally
within the organization, we consider that from 2004 onwards, there was more reality
to control.

So even though they accepted that Allianz did not have detailed control over how he was doing things, this didn't help his case - he still lost.

What nailed him was the ability for Allianz to control which project he was working on.

Probably still worth taking some of the precautions described, but it looks like the impact of such measures is reduced.

[prozak]

It's also worth understanding what is meant by "control" - check out the new Allianz ruling

http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.go...76/TC01603.pdf

Selected snippets





So even though they accepted that Allianz did not have detailed control over how he was doing things, this didn't help his case - he still lost.

What nailed him was the ability for Allianz to control which project he was working on.

Probably still worth taking some of the precautions described, but it looks like the impact of such measures is reduced.

No.

It was a partial loss. He was not under control before 2004. After 2004 he became a regular joe turning up to work being told what to work on.

[VectraMan]

The thing is though, an employed and contracted developer might both work in the same way, assigned bugs/tickets and going through the same process to make changes and get them tested/documented/signed off. As you say, it's a requirement of that particular role, but it still means your day-to-day activities might look very similar to the permies.

All part of the joke of IR35?

Now I'm a permie again, and nothing's really any different to how I worked as a contractor. I'm not told "how" to do something; in fact I wouldn't have got the job if I didn't have a lot of my own experience and expertise to bring to the role. I discuss with the management and my colleagues what direction the work should take, and which projects, or part-projects I should take on, and although yes I do have to get a card signed to take time off, in reality they're not going to refuse as long as I'm reasonably sensitive to the needs of my employer (it was very rare I took time off mid contract anyway).

[centurian]

It was a partial loss. He was not under control before 2004. After 2004 he became a regular joe turning up to work being told what to work on.

But being told what to work on - appears to trump all of the other aspects of control that we are discussing on this thread.

That's why it was a partial loss. Even after 2004, he still maintained many of the other elements of control we are talking about here. No-one ever told him how to do the work, even post 2004. But that didn't help him - he was still nailed on "control".

The point is - fine to follow the advice on these points in this thread, but it may be useless unless you also address the wider issue of control as rendered in this judgement.

[malvolio]

But being told what to work on - appears to trump all of the other aspects of control that we are discussing on this thread.

That's why it was a partial loss. Even after 2004, he still maintained many of the other elements of control we are talking about here. No-one ever told him how to do the work, even post 2004. But that didn't help him - he was still nailed on "control".

The point is - fine to follow the advice on these points in this thread, but it may be useless unless you also address the wider issue of control as rendered in this judgement.

Thre's lots wrong with that judgement, to be honest - <snip> - but luckily it hasn't set any precedents...

[centurian]

Maybe it's better if it is not appealed then - as that would set precedent if it was lost.