Divorce / Spousal Maintenance

[Jerry]

Afternoon,

My short question is: how can i reduce/hide my income/dividends so as to reduce the amount of child and spousal maintenance i pay.

Before i get jumped on and accused of avoiding parental responsibility though...

I run a Ltd co and have done for 7 years. I live in Devon and commute to London, living up here in a small room in somebody elses house.

I have been paying 25% of my earnings as i should for child maintenance. I've actually been stupid, and paid 25% of what i COULD have legitimately taken in dividends and salary, not 25% of what i HAVE (ie, ex wife got more than she should). She also got 70% of the house and 50% of my pension, on the basis that, as she is cohabiting with her new boyfriend, she wouldn't claim spousal maintenance.

She has changed her mind and my solicitor has advised me that she is simply renting rooms from her boyfriend. Two bed house, three sons, her, and her boyfriend. The solicitor says its obvious that she's cohabiting but there's a 50/50 chance the judge will agree. She works 16 hours a week, he hasn't worked in 8 years. They live in a council house, rent £450 a month. She left me and moved 60 miles away to be with him, and now i also get hit with about £40 a week in travel costs to pick up and drop off the kids. The CSA don't care.

It gets worse.

I hit the two year rule in about 6 months time. My commuting and living costs in London are about £1400 a month. Because of the way that child maintenance works, all of this will have to come from the 65% that i am left with after i have paid the 25% child maintenance and spousal maintenance which is approximately 10%, assuming she is awarded it.

In other words, she will get about £1800 a month for staying in bed. I will end up with about the same for working 60 hour weeks. Her and her boyfriend, when tax credits and other benefits are taken into account (because they ignore maintenance payments) are "bringing home" nearly £3500 a month!

All of this is starting to get me down. I also inherited a lot of debt from the divorce and so getting a job nearer home isn't an option - i need to pay it back first.

So i'm wondering if i should be more creative. But i don't really know what i could get away with. Understand that i fully expect to pay 25% of my income, but i don't feel it's fair that this is based on what i haven't earned (ie had to pay out in expenses) when the two year rule is hit.

Any advice/experience?

Jerry

[Kanye]

Must be galling working to keep someone in that lifestyle.

I personally would continue to send what I thought was a reasonable amount for the child, but then employ every trick in the book to avoid paying a penny. Short contracts, limited companies, working abroad, keeping off of the databases.

It's state sanctioned theft. Get angry, not 'creative'.

[sbakoola]

This is why marriage scares me off so much. How well do you really know a person before you commit etc. what are their true intentions and what do they really have on the agenda.

If there were no kids involved I would disappear to America or Australia or Europe forever and never come back.

I got no good advice to offer but a question ... did you sign any kind of pre-nuptial agreement ?

[Mojito]

There is a bright side

Firstly - on the plus side you have got access to your kids (a lot of people lose that as the PWC often uses the kids for leverage) and now this woman is someone else's beeyatch to bear. Hurrah to that.

Was your monthly CM amount defined in any court order, sealed by a judge, or brokered through the CSA? If the former then you are stuck with it for a year.

If the latter, or its been more than a year, think about going through a brollie for a few months then contact the CSA for a review. They will take into account your salary net of taxes but I am pretty sure that your expenses reimbursements will not be taken into account. So that £1,400 a month of legitimate expenses does not factor in their calculations, quite rightly too. You'll also be paying max-whack tax for a bit which will hurt, but that will give a better reflection of income taking into account contractors down-time (hols, sick, training, bench, etc.). I think Brillopad has had some experience in dealing with the CSA (my court order for CM is a year old in a months time so I have yet to experience that joy) so may have some insight to offer.

Finally, its actually money that you're paying for your kids so try to keep that in mind (hard I know). Also bear in mind that one day in the future, they will have left full time education and you'll be a lot richer every month, your ex will be the same amount poorer.

Chin up and good luck.

[Jerry]

Firstly - on the plus side you have got access to your kids (a lot of people lose that as the PWC often uses the kids for leverage) and now this woman is someone else's beeyatch to bear. Hurrah to that.

Was your monthly CM amount defined in any court order, sealed by a judge, or brokered through the CSA? If the former then you are stuck with it for a year.

If the latter, or its been more than a year, think about going through a brollie for a few months then contact the CSA for a review. They will take into account your salary net of taxes but I am pretty sure that your expenses reimbursements will not be taken into account. So that £1,400 a month of legitimate expenses does not factor in their calculations, quite rightly too. You'll also be paying max-whack tax for a bit which will hurt, but that will give a better reflection of income taking into account contractors down-time (hols, sick, training, bench, etc.). I think Brillopad has had some experience in dealing with the CSA (my court order for CM is a year old in a months time so I have yet to experience that joy) so may have some insight to offer.

Finally, its actually money that you're paying for your kids so try to keep that in mind (hard I know). Also bear in mind that one day in the future, they will have left full time education and you'll be a lot richer every month, your ex will be the same amount poorer.

Chin up and good luck.

We don't have a formal CSA agreement as i have paid 25% of my income in child maintenance from the get-go - and i don't reduce the amount i pay for the nights i have the kids. So she knows she's onto a good thing there. And i spoke to the CSA about expenses and they said they considered mine to be excessive but weren't allowed under their own rules to reduce the amount i pay. In fact the woman i talked to explained that if i earned £4k a month, and paid £3k in travel expenses, i would still be liable to pay her £1k, leaving me with nothing. That's the system. The CSA know its broken but can't fix it.

The govt's answer seems to be to keep hitting everybody for the sake of the few that don't pay. From next year, payments will be due on gross salary. So if you have a company car that affects the amount of tax you pay, or pay a lot into a pension, you will be worse off. The percentages reduce slightly, but most people on £40k a year will still end up about £20-30 out of pocket as a result of the change!

Anyway, i just wondered if anybody else who had gone through it knew what could legitimately done.

[wim121]

This is why marriage scares me off so much. How well do you really know a person before you commit etc. what are their true intentions and what do they really have on the agenda.

Yep, I was cohabiting with someone for longer than some marraiges, until I realised the agenda.

If there were no kids involved I would disappear to America or Australia or Europe forever and never come back.

My father did the same, went to america, to limit his losses in the divorce.

I got no good advice to offer but a question ... did you sign any kind of pre-nuptial agreement ?

Irrelevant, pre-nups carry no legal weight. Only time it has in recent history is one case where both wanted the pre-nup validated.

I have good advice to follow ...

[wim121]

Afternoon,

My short question is:

First off, you have my sympathy. Men get screwed over royally in splits. However you have done very well in this ssplit and should be pleased, even if our matrichal courts, technically still means the deal is unfair.

You wont like a lot of what I say, personally I hate it, but needs must. Your feelings are irrelevant, you need to put them aside to rectify this.

I have been paying 25% of my earnings as i should for child maintenance. I've actually been stupid, and paid 25% of what i COULD have legitimately taken in dividends and salary, not 25% of what i HAVE (ie, ex wife got more than she should). She also got 70% of the house and 50% of my pension, on the basis that, as she is cohabiting with her new boyfriend, she wouldn't claim spousal maintenance.

Be glad it worked out this way. Could have been a lot worse and she could have tried or might still try claiming SM. You need to protect yourself against this.

She has changed her mind and my solicitor has advised me that she is simply renting rooms from her boyfriend. Two bed house, three sons, her, and her boyfriend. The solicitor says its obvious that she's cohabiting but there's a 50/50 chance the judge will agree.

Of course she has. Her solicitor has advised her well. Have a little chinwag with your own, they should be telling you all of this. Under labour power, while it is still not finacially legally enforceable, through CSA, women and the children are able to get funding from cohabiting partners of a duration over six months (I will explain your advantage here is a second). It is extremely likely, they are perpurtrating this front, to avoid PR on the boyfriends side and affect the payments you make. Why declare the boyfriend/bull a cow, when they get all the milk they need from you.

Im trying to judge her intelligence. It doesnt seem very high by your post and the agreement in her new relationship, sounds like solicitors advice. If she was intelligent, she would have opted for SM, rising with inflation, than a pension. The house is irrelevant, she would have screwed it out of you anyway.

You have two options, thank your lucky stars you got off so lightly and keep things sweet to stop her milking you anymore, or deal with the situation, once and for all, legally and without killing everyone or torching her house. If you want to deal with her, carry on reading.

Your opportunity here is to keep your enemies close. Publicly "forgive" her and encourage her new relationship, be happy for them while holding down the vomit, admit things werent right and you love how she is happy, etc. You will need acting help/skills to pull this off.

You will make things easier on your kids wil this approach. Ultimately, you want to encourage her to enter proper cohabitation, if you can, marraige with this new sucker/boyfriend. Then you want to destroy her happiness with dirty rumours spread by her friend network. She manipulated you and the courts, so it is only fair, to return the favour. Once they are legally together somehow through your encouragement, the new sucker now has PR, yipee! If she isnt pulling on just your udders, but another mans, then you have diminished your outlay. Once they are happy, you destroy that and take it all away, ending their relationship without them knowing. Rumours, affairs and other methods work very well. With her having redirected anger towards him, the pressure will be off you. You will end up being far better off financially. This way as well, you can stay and watch your kids grow up. This whole process takes a minimum of 3-5 years.

The only other way as someone said, is to fall off the CSA grid, so move countries, etc etc. But you wont see your kids grow up. The above method exacts your revenge, strengthens your bond with your kids and makes finances far easier for you.

Either play the game, or die a shriveled up cow, milked to death by a feral government and ex.

She works 16 hours a week, he hasn't worked in 8 years. They live in a council house, rent £450 a month.

Another thing you can do, once they split and he is hounded, is report him to the SS/DWP. It sounds like he is claiming benefit, possibly DLA or some form of incapacity yet is perfectly able to work?

I would have a lot of fun with this situation!

She left me and moved 60 miles away to be with him, and now i also get hit with about £40 a week in travel costs to pick up and drop off the kids. The CSA don't care.

Why should they care at all?

Get past the silly notion the CSA care about the children, let alone the parents wellbeing. That is not their purpose.

I hit the two year rule in about 6 months time. My commuting and living costs in London are about £1400 a month. Because of the way that child maintenance works, all of this will have to come from the 65% that i am left with after i have paid the 25% child maintenance and spousal maintenance which is approximately 10%, assuming she is awarded it.

You need to talk to your solicitor. You need to clarify where you stand on your prior arrangement and SM.

Her and her boyfriend, when tax credits and other benefits are taken into account (because they ignore maintenance payments) are "bringing home" nearly £3500 a month!

Yep, milking the welfare system pays very well. Why do you think so many people do it?

All of this is starting to get me down. I also inherited a lot of debt from the divorce and so getting a job nearer home isn't an option - i need to pay it back first.

It gets me down as well and sickens me how those sitting on their arse, are entitled to more than those toiling away. That is what welfare systems do though when they hand out cash.

So i'm wondering if i should be more creative. But i don't really know what i could get away with. Understand that i fully expect to pay 25% of my income, but i don't feel it's fair that this is based on what i haven't earned (ie had to pay out in expenses) when the two year rule is hit.

Any advice/experience?

Speak to your accountant, but however creative you become, dont fudge your financial figures at all and be very careful with your taxes.

You need to be more creative, but after speaking to an accountant, the best way is legally and manipulating the very agencies, set out to destroy men.

[wim121]

We don't have a formal CSA agreement as i have paid 25% of my income in child maintenance from the get-go - and i don't reduce the amount i pay for the nights i have the kids. So she knows she's onto a good thing there. And i spoke to the CSA about expenses and they said they considered mine to be excessive but weren't allowed under their own rules to reduce the amount i pay. In fact the woman i talked to explained that if i earned £4k a month, and paid £3k in travel expenses, i would still be liable to pay her £1k, leaving me with nothing. That's the system. The CSA know its broken but can't fix it.

Only just saw this post (got sidetracked mid typing before).

As I said, the CSA can fix it but that is not the purpose of the CSA. The CSA should be renamed the EPBF to avoid confusion from people like yourself. Once you replace the CSA name with the Ex Partner Beer Funding, it will all start to make a lot more sense.

The govt's answer seems to be to keep hitting everybody for the sake of the few that don't pay. From next year, payments will be due on gross salary. So if you have a company car that affects the amount of tax you pay, or pay a lot into a pension, you will be worse off. The percentages reduce slightly, but most people on £40k a year will still end up about £20-30 out of pocket as a result of the change!

The cow (you) has an option here. If a cow keeps getting excessively milked, does it continue eating grass? Yes, because cows are stupid. You dont need to be that foolish. If you plan to stay in the UK, you dont have to behave like a cow/bull like the rest of the worlds population. Instead, become that tic upon the cow.

My point is, continue getting milked, or play the system at its own game. Apart from integrity and morals, there is nothing stopping you from stopping eating grass. You dont have to work your arse off, just to fund her lifestyle, there is another way, which her boyfriend has exploited rather well.

Anyway, i just wondered if anybody else who had gone through it knew what could legitimately done.

Follow my advice in the post above. Stick him with PR as well and then break them up. Re-direct her malice towards him rather than you, all legally, while holding your head high and keeping a great relationship with your kids.

[mudskipper]

Then you want to destroy her happiness with dirty rumours spread by her friend network. ... Once they are happy, you destroy that and take it all away, ending their relationship without them knowing. Rumours, affairs and other methods work very well.

Jeez, you really are a bitter individual.

Exactly how is that going to be healthy for OP's well-being?

I have lots of sympathy for OP, but surely the best thing for all parties is to come to an agreement that is fair to all concerned, then move on emotionally? Easier said than done I know, but the alternative is to spend your life screwed up, bitter and never trusting anyone.

[wim121]

Jeez, you really are a bitter individual.

Not bitter at all. I havent had kids so that hasnt happened to me.

Exactly how is that going to be healthy for OP's well-being?

As I said, not the best way for the OP's integrity, but best for his finances and the future relationship with his children, hence you being wrong.

JeezI have lots of sympathy for OP, but surely the best thing for all parties is to come to an agreement that is fair to all concerned, then move on emotionally?

In an ideal world yes. Yet when the CSA gets involved, that doesnt happen. The other party is being far from honest living with another man yet not declaring it and trying to get spousal support as well.

Easier said than done I know, but the alternative is to spend your life screwed up, bitter and never trusting anyone.

When did I ever say about not trusting everyone? When did I ever say about him screwing up his own life?

I really wish you would stop this pathetic crusade you've had against me and anything I say since day one, it's quite tiresome and childish.