Currently a sole trader agent says I need to operate through a umbrella or ltd co.

[TestMangler]

OK, of course, you've had an investigation and I haven't after 16 years contracting. Which one of us is doing it right?

FWIW I've studied every appealed case since 2003, they all hinge on different factors and different subtleties of interpretation depending on the specific circumstances, mainly since the original law is so foggy. In general there has to be an irreducible minimum of Mutuality present and being paid for no work is part of that. Being paid what is effectively a penalty for a reduced notice period isn't about Mutuality.

And I don't actually care that much anyway, I was only objecting to you misquoting what I said and using it out of context to prove your own point.

And after 18 years of contracting, I've had a PAYE compliance visit which turned into an IR35 enquiry. Don't see how that equates to you doing anything right.

The MOO point wich you keep making is simple. The contractor has a contract with the agency. If for some reason that goes wrong and the client terminates or there is a misunderstanding between client and agency (or whatever reason tbh) and the contractor has his contract terminated contrary to the notice period within the contract, then the contractor has a choice to make about whether to pursue it or not. That decision can be based on several factors. To suggest, as you continually do, that a real business would move on and just forget it, because if they don't then 'they are a permie' is, quite simply, crap advice. That's the point I'm making.

Each case has to be taken on it's own merit. The contractor has to decide, based on what their material loss is, the chance of recovering that loss in a cost effective manner etc etc etc. Simply advising that the only course of action is to 'forget it' and not 'forgetting it' makes you a permie, is frankly, grade one bulltulip.

[TestMangler]

Just for the people who are contemplating such an action against an agent, in Scotland (you will have to check the rules that apply to your location if outside Scotland) there is a procedure called summary cause. This is for amounts between £3000 and £5000 i.e. above the limit for Small Claims. This action can be raised for less than £100.

To be succesful, you will have to prove your loss. I have done this once and the agency in question did not defend it.

If you think you have a grievance with an agency resulting in a loss, you have to decide whether or not you wish to put any financial effort into recouping that loss. The legal procedure is quite simple. This may also result in the agency defending the action at which point you may have to consider dropping it, when the potential legal fees start to outweigh the loss.

So, to anyone who thinks they have a legal/financial grievance against an agency, research the legal options first and make a decision and pursue it if you feel so inclined. You are in no way guaranteed to succeed (or fail for that matter). Don't simply 'drop it and move on' without considering your options. A 'real' business would NOT do that.

[malvolio]

And after 18 years of contracting, I've had a PAYE compliance visit which turned into an IR35 enquiry. Don't see how that equates to you doing anything right.

The MOO point wich you keep making is simple. The contractor has a contract with the agency. If for some reason that goes wrong and the client terminates or there is a misunderstanding between client and agency (or whatever reason tbh) and the contractor has his contract terminated contrary to the notice period within the contract, then the contractor has a choice to make about whether to pursue it or not. That decision can be based on several factors. To suggest, as you continually do, that a real business would move on and just forget it, because if they don't then 'they are a permie' is, quite simply, crap advice. That's the point I'm making.

Each case has to be taken on it's own merit. The contractor has to decide, based on what their material loss is, the chance of recovering that loss in a cost effective manner etc etc etc. Simply advising that the only course of action is to 'forget it' and not 'forgetting it' makes you a permie, is frankly, grade one bulltulip.

OK, I give up. You aren't talking about MOO, that's the point I'm making. Also, if you bother to look back, I only say it's no use pursuing notice periods for contracts that haven't started, and if you get terminated early the client will use the "immediate termination without explanation" clauses and the notice period is irrelevant because you have not been served notice and any thoughts of claiming it are pointless.

YMMV. WGAS. HTH

[TestMangler]

OK, I give up. You aren't talking about MOO, that's the point I'm making. Also, if you bother to look back, I only say it's no use pursuing notice periods for contracts that haven't started, and if you get terminated early the client will use the "immediate termination without explanation" clauses and the notice period is irrelevant because you have not been served notice and any thoughts of claiming it are pointless.

YMMV. WGAS. HTH

Again, a sweeping and inaccurate assertion.

So now you don't give a tulip ? You give a lot of strenuously worded (poor) advice for someone who doesn't G.A.S.

[SueEllen]

Just for the people who are contemplating such an action against an agent, in Scotland (you will have to check the rules that apply to your location if outside Scotland) there is a procedure called summary cause. This is for amounts between £3000 and £5000 i.e. above the limit for Small Claims. This action can be raised for less than £100.

The small claims limit in England is £5,000.

The amount you pay to submit your case depends on the amount you are claiming.

Neither party can claim expenses for the use of a solicitor as small claims cases are suppose to be simple. However if your case is seen as complex then it will be referred to a higher court.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Yes Lisa, sorry. Prozak is correct. I meant to quote Mal, rather than yourself.

Mal regularly tells newbs they should be paying taxes as if IR35 caught if they post questions about how to ask for holidays etc but now claims it's almost impossible to be caught these days

That's OK TM Have to say your contre-temps with Mal is making great reading

[TestMangler]

That's OK TM Have to say your contre-temps with Mal is making great reading

No Probs.

Glad you're enjoying it. Do you think we have the basis for a soap opera script here ?

Permie-enders, Contractation Street ?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

No Probs.

Glad you're enjoying it. Do you think we have the basis for a soap opera script here ?

Permie-enders, Contractation Street ?

Permie-enders Definitely - who would play you and Mal though???

[TestMangler]

Permie-enders Definitely - who would play you and Mal though???

Probably Colin Firth for me (if he can do a Scottish accent) and Timmy Mallett for Mal

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Probably Colin Firth for me (if he can do a Scottish accent) and Timmy Mallett for Mal

Ah bless him! I think you've upset him you know TM - he seems to have stormed off in a huff