Reverse engineering a schema - any ethical or legal imlications?

[Clever Hans]

Wow, 9 answers in short order, very much appreciated.

There are differing opinions here, most of which I have been going over myself before posting - I actually already walked away, but wanted to be absolutely sure I hadn't missed a great opportunity by being too up my rear end.

On a couple of points:

They wanted to contract me for expertise in a niche platform they don't have - the product expertise is a nice plus for them.

The 'reverse engineering of the schema' is just connecting up (eg. via normal db/erd tools) and working out the schema and what the fields do. Then mapping and extracting via (eg.) an SQL connection which will remain in place. There is nothing innovative in there, but the schema is presumably as proprietary as the code? It is part of the application.

There are no extended export capabilities (afaik) in the FromCo application, just the normal reporting, and that's not what they want me to use anyway.

I figured it goes on all the time, but I wasn't sure as to the legal okness of this particular approach, or my exposure as a non-employee.

Although the product is still in development, the end client is using a version from my era at FromCo.

The getting a lawyer to go over the contract advice is sound, but there has been enough conflicting opinion here for me to remain uncomfortable ethically about the contract, particularly as regards my history with FromCo, so I'm going to stay out I think, though will take on board any further discussion.

Thank you all.

[RichardCranium]

There are no extended export capabilities (afaik) in the FromCo application.

Although the product is still in development, the end client is using a version from my era at FromCo.

... my history with FromCo...

How about just 'phoning FromCo and asking their opinion? They may be fine if you ask them up front, since they know you. Communication fixes most problems and if they know what you're up to, they will be less likely to worry.

You never know, this might turn into a Plan B...

[Wanderer]

Basically, is it dodgy or perfectly normal and above board?

My ethical standards are inversely proportional to how much the client is paying.

How about just 'phoning FromCo and asking their opinion?

I think he mentioned an NDA so I wouldn't think that either party would be very happy about that.

[MarillionFan]

What on earth is everyone talking about?

The contract is not to 'reverse engineer a schema' for goodness sake. As part of standard data transfer & migration you need to have knowledge of a data schema and how it works but you don't 'reverse engineer'. It' doesn't do anything, it just stores data.

The OP's knowledge of the schema is what should be worth a premium.

Effectively you are being asked to provide a data map/schema of the existing system(Toad for example will analyse an entire DB and do this) and then map the data to a format they require(or a destination system).

This is a standard piece of data migration/modelling.

Jeez.

(If you don't want to do it, I'll do it)

[Moscow Mule]

Pretty much every project I've ever worked on has needed this sort of knowledge about a proprietary system to either migrate to or from said system.


That said, it's always been the clients data so I've never had a problem with it, ethically or otherwise.

[Clever Hans]

What on earth is everyone talking about?

The contract is not to 'reverse engineer a schema' for goodness sake. As part of standard data transfer & migration you need to have knowledge of a data schema and how it works but you don't 'reverse engineer'. It' doesn't do anything, it just stores data.

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This is a standard piece of data migration/modelling.

Jeez.

Well, I wasn't trying to big the operation up or anything. I think not calling it 'reverse engineering' is semantics (I'm used to the phrase in that context) - the data model you are extracting allows you to derive information about the data and the application.

But whether we call it reverse engineering a schema/schema extraction/data modelling/whatever, the wording of the law, and the function being undertaken leaves enough ambiguity to give people like me - who haven't done it to a competing product before under the conditions I stated - pause for thought, and I was unable to find a clear answer before coming here.

However, I take your other point everybody does it. They were not paying me a premium for product knowledge fwiw.

[thunderlizard]

This book covers the IP implications of reverse engineering in probably as much detail as you'll need, including case law:
Software Copyright Law: Amazon.co.uk: David I. Bainbridge: Books

[SueEllen]

This book covers the IP implications of reverse engineering in probably as much detail as you'll need, including case law:
Software Copyright Law: Amazon.co.uk: David I. Bainbridge: Books

Problem is books like that are normally as clear as mud to someone who doesn't have legally trained mates to discuss particular cases with. (If Clever Hans had he wouldn't be using the term reverse engineering.)

It also doesn't help that the book is years out of date. Laws particularly in the legal jurisdictions of the UK change very quickly, so something that is valid one month is not valid the next.

[RichardCranium]

Are you a member of the BCS, IAP or PCG? All of those provide access to a free legal helpline for queries such as this.

Also, check your professional indemnity insurance, contents / buildings insurance or bank account perks. You may get free legal advice bundled in with any of those, too.

Failing that, check out the web site of egos (the IT contractors' lawyer; I've used him and he's good) which may have the answer. Or just phone him. (But have your debit card details to hand.)

[MarillionFan]

Are you a member of the BCS, IAP or PCG? All of those provide access to a free legal helpline for queries such as this.

Also, check your professional indemnity insurance, contents / buildings insurance or bank account perks. You may get free legal advice bundled in with any of those, too.

Failing that, check out the web site of egos (the IT contractors' lawyer; I've used him and he's good) which may have the answer. Or just phone him. (But have your debit card details to hand.)

This project sounds extremely iffy to me. Personally I wouldn't touch it without the help of Max Clifford and a top notch legal team. Nobody has ever done a piece of data migration before which required knowledge of the schema. Best to avoid.