BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I've seen a lot of mention in the forum about Sumoto/Suo moto. What actually happened here?

It's a very long story but here is the potted version.

Two guys who originally worked with MTM broke away in late 2001 to set up their own scheme which was promoted under the name "Suo Motu".

They subsequently obtained a legal opinion which cast some doubt over the scheme so they advised their clients to settle with HMRC in early 2003.

At around the same time, MTM started legal proceedings against these guys over intellectual property and they've been involved in what appears to be a bitter dispute ever since.

One of the Suo Motu guys posts on this forum and let's just say there's been a fair amount of acrimony on both sides.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

It's good to know that Warr is a nice guy but the real question is, has at least one person been sucessfully put through his scheme?
If so then it would open the gates for other to follow. Without it having working for at least one person, it doesn't yet work (by definition).

I don't know if anyone has been successful but I would be absolutely amazed if they have.

And I don't say this as a slight against Tim or anyone else involved in this scheme. For all I know, it could actually work.

The problem is I just can't see HMRC conceding anything regarding BN66 without a monumental fight and, as we know, you need very deep pockets to take these litigious bastards on.

[OnYourBikeGB]

Nah... that was a guy called Giles Morris I believe.

I remember about Giles, but I'm pretty sure that Tim Warr was involved at some stage too. I spoke to him. He was as DR said, very honest and forthright, but I think he was definitely involved with AJ. Possibly supplying the accountancy services? Maybe someone else can remember more details.

[Emigre]

Nah... that was a guy called Giles Morris I believe.

I think this might be the Giles Morris discussed..http://www.gilesmorris.com/

Seems that he has done some work for Fidei which I believe is one of our friend AJ's businesses..http://www.fidei.biz/

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I remember about Giles, but I'm pretty sure that Tim Warr was involved at some stage too. I spoke to him. He was as DR said, very honest and forthright, but I think he was definitely involved with AJ. Possibly supplying the accountancy services? Maybe someone else can remember more details.

I don't think Warr & Co were involved in the operation of Suo Motu but according to this it sounds like they may have referred some of their clients to Suo Motu.

Isle of Man Judgments Online

I'm not sure there's much point in raking over this further.

A lot of unfortunate stuff has happened over the years and it's probably best if we now just draw a line under all of this.

[OnYourBikeGB]

I don't think Warr & Co were involved in the operation of Suo Motu but according to this it sounds like they may have referred some of their clients to Suo Motu.

Isle of Man Judgments Online

I'm not sure there's much point in raking over this further.

A lot of unfortunate stuff has happened over the years and it's probably best if we now just draw a line under all of this.

Maybe that's how I ended up chatting with him, it was quite a while a go. I remember being impressed with him at the time, very to the point with the facts, and I wasn't attempting to imply that he was up to anything dodgy, only that I knew they were linked. Totally agree though, there's nothing really of interest here. I saw the scheme that was being marketed to try to avoid BN66, but I think our best chance really lies in the courts. I have no desire to get into another drawn out legal process, and who knows what HMRC might do if they won, penalties could be applied etc. We have a limited degree of protection from over-zealous tactics this time round, because we are a large group, we'd be much easier to pick off otherwise.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Maybe that's how I ended up chatting with him, it was quite a while a go. I remember being impressed with him at the time, very to the point with the facts, and I wasn't attempting to imply that he was up to anything dodgy, only that I knew they were linked. Totally agree though, there's nothing really of interest here. I saw the scheme that was being marketed to try to avoid BN66, but I think our best chance really lies in the courts. I have no desire to get into another drawn out legal process, and who knows what HMRC might do if they won, penalties could be applied etc. We have a limited degree of protection from over-zealous tactics this time round, because we are a large group, we'd be much easier to pick off otherwise.

One danger with the BN66.co.uk scheme is that part of the argument appears to involve admitting that you are caught by IR35.

As someone I've heard from has discovered to their cost, that can be a very risky thing to do depending on what you did before and after being with MTM.

I assume I don't need to spell out how this could seriously backfire.

[OneUnited]

BN66-Round 2

Just to bring us back to the current, is there any updates news etc on the current appeal?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Just to bring us back to the current, is there any updates news etc on the current appeal?

No, we're still waiting for the judgment.

Advance notice of judgments are given here (see NOTICES FOR JUDGMENTS).

Court Hearings - Court of Appeal Civil Division

[mossman]

Protests

Students are kicking up a stink about a potential increase to £9K a year, and it's not even retrospective!