BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[moira under the stairs]

Count me in

I'm in for the long haul

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

Who is God?

Folks, if I try to chrystalize much of what has been posted and debated in the last few days it would be this:

First, Milne is just one individual who had an opinion. HMRC have used it it court (whether that was appropriate or not remains to be seen). But as DR says, HMRC had multiple other legal opinions non of which were submitted. You can only wonder why, but I think I know. Milne is not God.

Alan Jones as ever has a lot to say on the matter. But he too is just an individual. And frankly he generates more contradictions than he does answers. He took one route years ago. There's no right or wrong in that. If his moral compass said to cave in when there was no legal evidence to do so then that was his choice. Selling out for an easy life is a matter of conscience. Alan is not God.

WG is the individual who has taken up the fight and thus far has stood true to his word. In that respect, he has followed his moral compass. But he too is an individual. Heaven forbid, but if he keeled over tomorrow, what next? To presume that all this hangs on one individual and his actions is folly. WG is not God.

The MP circular says pretty much what I'd expect it to say. That is, very little. MP moving out of the business they had been involved with is no suprise given how HMRC and the Government cannot seem to "clarify" the difference between avoidance and evasion. I don't read too much into this. MP is not God.

The CoA was revealing. The Judges gave all Counsel a pretty hard time and rightly so. But we simply don't know which way it will go. And given all the twists and turns thus far, little would suprise me. The CoA is however, not God.

So what is God? It's the belief that you conduct yourself with honesty and integrity. You are clear in what you do and say why you are doing it. You stand by your convictions, in the eyes of the law, you obey the law and you submit to the law. You don't dance with the Devil just because he doesn't agree with your moral stance. You don't stand up for yourself or defend the principles on which you live only to submit when told to for the petty reason that someone else has decided to "play" God. That is not their right.

HMRC want to beat us. Not because we did anything illegal or subversive or hidden. Not because we were able enough to use the law as Adam Smith stated was the right of every person. Not because we traded in the world of tax evasion. But because they messed up and need BN66 to rectify that. HMRC are playing God, but they are not God.

What this boils down to is having the belief and spirit to stand by our convictions and persue justice that is rightly ours. The non-Gods listed above are parties to all of this but in many ways are merely bystanders. We are the ones who have the say on our fate and whatever the outcome in the coming weeks, don't forget this.

This is no easy time for any of us. But "us" is as a collective. We are not individuals and we do have a moral compass. Whatever else happens, this sets "us" aside from all the above. I for one am in the fight whichever direction that fight goes and the individuals or collective that stands with me.

[SantaClaus]

Very well said TSBT!

I'd just like to add my thoughts regarding Helen7's comments that HMRC could collect within 30 days of the COA decision.

HMRC have only taken Mr Huitson to court. If the Revenue win the COA and send me a demand as a result, what is that demand for? I have not been through the legal process and I expect to have my day in court too.

Now let's imagine what would happen if 3000 of us all demand that we have our day in court?

Obviously, this is strictly a lay-person's view. Comments from armchair lawyers invited

[silver_lining]

Comms

If someone has a scan, can they send it over as I have not received and judging by the reports I probably don't want a copy ! but must face reality.

Thanks
SL

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

Barkers Parkers

I recall how Parker suggested that we might have chosen to "let sleeping dogs lie" as justification for 6 years on nothingness. Well I'm not so sure he's got that one right. I mean, if taking a tightly rolled up Chum flavoured Tax Return with pieces of real tax treaty in it and ramming it up Hectors arse every January for 6 years is "letting sleeping dogs lie" then I hate to think what he would define as "dog bating".

On the contrary, I'm sorry, but what I think Parker defined was giving a very wide steer to said mut and ensuring that you don't trouble it at any cost. Also known as tax EVASION.

Oh well, so Parker too seems to struggle with the difference. No wonder we got the verdict we did. Hopefully the CoA are dog lovers and should therefore know the difference.

[smalldog]

If someone has a scan, can they send it over as I have not received and judging by the reports I probably don't want a copy ! but must face reality.

Thanks
SL

SL it really isnt a bad letter, Im getting a bit fed up of the negativity on this forum. Nothing has changed, we are waiting for judgement, MP's circular said nothing to either give us hopes or to dash them..

[silver_lining]

......

TSTB

IMHO, I accept some of you opinions and a lot are probably correct

As much as it angers me, I really feel we as a group need a reality check on where we are. At this point in time, you rightly point out that the collective simply do not know which way it will go. I am positive by nature, however, its hard to ignore general opinion that the latest note and MPs shift in business priorities, certainly suggests our current challenge is looking fragile, even in MPs eyes. I understand no firm commitment in terms of support was provided and you could argue they are preparing the group for the worst.

Even if we win COA, we are looking at another round and again I personally believe MPs change in priorities changes everything, this is now a simple business interest call.... If they are not in that space anymore does it really matter if they pursue or not in terms of image.... I really doubt it. I do believe their hearts were originally in the right place, but now things have simply changed.

As such I strongly suggest alternative planning, challenging from a completely different angle if any exists; however the financial support remains a big obstacle.

Sorry for appearing to sound negative, but its not meant to be, its just honest analysis and at this point the jury is out so it really does not matter what we say on here at this point in time.

I too need us to win.....

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Circular

NW has asked me to say that if anyone has not received a copy drop her an email.

Alternatively, you can PM me and I will forward you the text of it.

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

SL it really isnt a bad letter, Im getting a bit fed up of the negativity on this forum. Nothing has changed, we are waiting for judgement, MP's circular said nothing to either give us hopes or to dash them..

Agreed. After all this time and what we've gone through nothing should come as a suprise and indeed on the face of it we have nothing more than speculation to fuel our worries. There's bound to be a few more twists and turns in this roller coaster from Hell. But the CoA ruling is the next true test. Until we know that outcome, we can only speculate or delve into the depths of depression.

Nothing has fundamentally changed as we know it. MP are still there and are standing on the moral high ground to take this fight on. We can guess and speculate on what might happen and when, but the fact is until the CoA ruling we simply won't know. But as I said earlier, we're not individuals in this. We are a collective. And there's mileage in that, a lot of miles. Sooner that than being on your own hey?

Whilst the notion of all the wood behind a single arrow head might be the order of the day right now, it doesn't mean you only have a single string to your bow.

Besides, my planned re-make of the kids TV series Hector's House which will be called Hector's Hell House should make more than enough money to cover all our alleged liabilities!

[GottaBeOptimistic]

If someone has a scan, can they send it over as I have not received and judging by the reports I probably don't want a copy ! but must face reality.

Thanks
SL

I also haven't seen / received it.


________________

EDIT:

Seen it now - thanks DR...