BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[helen7]

I've reconciled myself to the fact I'll never see my CTD amount ever again. Its gone, lost, swallowed by HMRC.

As far as Im concerned, if we get any result in 5 to 7 years, I'll be massively pleased. But I wont be holding my breath. Same as with the 'new' IR35 review. I dont for one second think I \ we'll be better off financially. Maybe more certain of how son of IR35 will catch people but financially better off? Never.

Agreed. We are very unlikely to ever see this money again now.

I can't help but think all the attention grabbing of this forum and the Government website has only acted to damage our cause. (I should add that The background work by DR has been fantastic unearthing the wrong-doings).

All those posting on the other site; please appreciate that your actions affect thousands of other people. Posting stupid suggestions like 'make fake posts' etc....only adds fuel to the fire for HMRC to throw at us. There was a lot of truth is the criticism of your actions on there; and you can bet this will be used in court against us (just like this forum).

If 2000 people are affected by this, then we should hope to get 2000 votes and 2000 comments; which is plenty to highlight the importance of this.

And if we come out on top; do you really think the newspapers will look favorably on 'tax dodgers' and 'pot smokers'? No, the newspapers will be looking to rubbish the site and will use the to posts as ammunition for there story.

[SantaClaus]

Agreed. We are very unlikely to ever see this money again now.

I can't help but think all the attention grabbing of this forum and the Government website has only acted to damage our cause. (I should add that The background work by DR has been fantastic unearthing the wrong-doings).

All those posting on the other site; please appreciate that your actions affect thousands of other people. Posting stupid suggestions like 'make fake posts' etc....only adds fuel to the fire for HMRC to throw at us. There was a lot of truth is the criticism of your actions on there; and you can bet this will be used in court against us (just like this forum).

If 2000 people are affected by this, then we should hope to get 2000 votes and 2000 comments; which is plenty to highlight the importance of this.

And if we come out on top; do you really think the newspapers will look favorably on 'tax dodgers' and 'pot smokers'? No, the newspapers will be looking to rubbish the site and will use the to posts as ammunition for there story.

I don't agree with you Helen7.

A first there were some "fake"/duplicate posts on the govt. website, but those have been cleared up and there is now a very interesting discussion, some very good arguments and heartfelt pleas put forward. I would like to see those comments used in court.

Regarding "fuelling the fire". You seem to be implying that we should tiptoe around the govt/press/MPs, in case we upset them and jeapordise any imaginary sympathy they may have for us. You only have to look at how the PCG tiptoed around the govt. for years regarding IR35, held meetings with them, massaged their egos, etc. etc, and still the govt. dont want to scrap IR35 after all these years later.

Back to the website. Never mind the pot smokers. Clegg set up a website to listen to the general public. If it was an empty gesture, one day it will come back to bite him.

And by the way, if 2000 people are affected by this, then they should really get off their backsides and do something and not leave it to the precious few.


First They Came - Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialist
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

[MajorGowen]

Agreed. We are very unlikely to ever see this money again now.

I can't help but think all the attention grabbing of this forum and the Government website has only acted to damage our cause. (I should add that The background work by DR has been fantastic unearthing the wrong-doings).

All those posting on the other site; please appreciate that your actions affect thousands of other people. Posting stupid suggestions like 'make fake posts' etc....only adds fuel to the fire for HMRC to throw at us. There was a lot of truth is the criticism of your actions on there; and you can bet this will be used in court against us (just like this forum).

If 2000 people are affected by this, then we should hope to get 2000 votes and 2000 comments; which is plenty to highlight the importance of this.

And if we come out on top; do you really think the newspapers will look favorably on 'tax dodgers' and 'pot smokers'? No, the newspapers will be looking to rubbish the site and will use the to posts as ammunition for there story.

Hi Helen7,

I disagree that we should not post on the Government website, as long as what we write is relevant, highlights what we are going through, highlights the lies and deceitful manner that this Act was passed, or reminds the public and the Government that everyone (apart from HMRC and a couple of their "Members" of Parliament) were against this. If that opens debate then that is a good thing. I would rather that we had the opportunity to get this debated and have half the public for us and half against. What I don't want is to hide under a stone for 4 years then have my house taken away.

I agree that a lot of people will not like the fact that we were avoiding tax, but so are many other people out there - I think you would be surprised at how many have tax arrangements in place (for example how many small companies still pay a small salary with dividends). These people are more likely to be vocal if this opens the opportunity for HMRC to change the law and come after them.

For the people who are strongly against us then I would also like to chance to debate HMRC's handling of this. They knew what we were doing in 2001, so the public should be asking THEM why they let us continue with this tax avoidence scheme for 7 years without doing anything.

Please understand that we have done nothing wrong. We had the scheme number declared on all of our Tax Returns, many of us never had the Returns even challenged, giving us the impression that HMRC were happy with the scheme. So it is not a simple arguament of "They are tax dodgers, so tough luck".

I also agree that it would be fantastic if everyone affected by this - circa 2500 - wrote just one comment on the thread, and gave it the relevant rating. That would soar our "idea" way above everyone, and it wouldn't be left for a few of us to generate a debate.

MajorGowen.

[BarneyCool]

The problem is -

Hi Helen7,

I disagree that we should not post on the Government website, as long as what we write is relevant, highlights what we are going through, highlights the lies and deceitful manner that this Act was passed, or reminds the public and the Government that everyone (apart from HMRC and a couple of their "Members" of Parliament) were against this. If that opens debate then that is a good thing. I would rather that we had the opportunity to get this debated and have half the public for us and half against. What I don't want is to hide under a stone for 4 years then have my house taken away.

I agree that a lot of people will not like the fact that we were avoiding tax, but so are many other people out there - I think you would be surprised at how many have tax arrangements in place (for example how many small companies still pay a small salary with dividends). These people are more likely to be vocal if this opens the opportunity for HMRC to change the law and come after them.

For the people who are strongly against us then I would also like to chance to debate HMRC's handling of this. They knew what we were doing in 2001, so the public should be asking THEM why they let us continue with this tax avoidence scheme for 7 years without doing anything.

Please understand that we have done nothing wrong. We had the scheme number declared on all of our Tax Returns, many of us never had the Returns even challenged, giving us the impression that HMRC were happy with the scheme. So it is not a simple arguament of "They are tax dodgers, so tough luck".

I also agree that it would be fantastic if everyone affected by this - circa 2500 - wrote just one comment on the thread, and gave it the relevant rating. That would soar our "idea" way above everyone, and it wouldn't be left for a few of us to generate a debate.

MajorGowen.

That most of the 2,500 will not even be aware of this forum let alone the cleggy site and without a complete list of those affected it will never swell to those numbers.

[MajorGowen]

Call to Arms...

That most of the 2,500 will not even be aware of this forum let alone the cleggy site and without a complete list of those affected it will never swell to those numbers.

A lot won't be aware, but I would guess that at least half of those affected will be aware of this site. We must have a way of finding out how many different users have posted on this forum, and lots of others will still be lurking. DR has a link to the Government website in all of his current posts. It only takes a minute to register, rate, and add a comment, so come on everyone, add a rating and a comment - you never know, it MIGHT get this Act debated.

MajorGowen...

[screwthis]

Hi Helen7,
many of us never had the Returns even challenged, giving us the impression that HMRC were happy with the scheme.

Did you really not get challenged? I and everyone I spoke to received a letter literally a week before the tax year was up saying that the tax return was under investigation. They have a year to challenge a return and then can hold it open for 6 years.

So if you didn't get challenged within a year I thought that meant that it was done and dusted and there was nothing they could do about it?? Or does this retrospection supercede that?

[MajorGowen]

Did you really not get challenged? I and everyone I spoke to received a letter literally a week before the tax year was up saying that the tax return was under investigation. They have a year to challenge a return and then can hold it open for 6 years.

So if you didn't get challenged within a year I thought that meant that it was done and dusted and there was nothing they could do about it?? Or does this retrospection supercede that?

Hi screwthis,

My first Tax Return (2002/03) went unchallenged, and the second for 2003/04 was challenged but the muppets sent it to my old address, despite me sending in a letter telling them I had moved. When I eventually found out about this Montpelier told me that this therefore was unchallenged as it is up to them to send the correspondence to the correct address (they also wrote to HMRC). So the first I knew about a challenge was midway through 2005, and I returned to working via a Ltd Co in December 2005.

To my mind, HMRC knew what I was doing as I told them on the Tax Return. They had an entire year each time to tell me this was wrong but failed to do so. I did everything I could to stay within the law, yet still have a bill in the region of £100k.

How is that "fair" ??

MajorGowen...

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Did you really not get challenged? I and everyone I spoke to received a letter literally a week before the tax year was up saying that the tax return was under investigation. They have a year to challenge a return and then can hold it open for 6 years.

So if you didn't get challenged within a year I thought that meant that it was done and dusted and there was nothing they could do about it?? Or does this retrospection supercede that?

I know lots of people who didn't get their returns challenged within the 1-year window but HMRC simply swept this aside using "discovery". In some instances, people have even received Closure Notices for returns where enquiries had never been opened!

HMRC's "rules" are obviously not worth the paper they're written on.

[MajorGowen]

Did you really not get challenged? I and everyone I spoke to received a letter literally a week before the tax year was up saying that the tax return was under investigation. They have a year to challenge a return and then can hold it open for 6 years.

So if you didn't get challenged within a year I thought that meant that it was done and dusted and there was nothing they could do about it?? Or does this retrospection supercede that?

Sorry, didn't answer your question.

That was my understanding at the time - if not challenged within a year then the money is yours. That was one of the most attractive parts of the scheme when it was sold to me, as the main issue at the time was IR35 with the possibility of 6 years back tax hanging over me.

Apparently though they can reopen a Tax return, and they stated that they used "Discovery" to find everyone who was using the scheme. Seems strange they need to "discover" something that they had already been told we were doing.

I have seen posts from others who state that they NEVER received a challenge - not sure if that is true?

MajorGowen...

[MajorGowen]

I know lots of people who didn't get their returns challenged within the 1-year window but HMRC simply swept this aside using "discovery". In some instances, people have even received Closure Notices for returns where enquiries had never been opened!

HMRC's "rules" are obviously not worth the paper they're written on.

Well I'm one of them. They NEVER enquired about my 2002/03 Tax return, yet I still have a Closure Notice for it.