BN66 - JR Judgement Day

[DonkeyRhubarb]

OK, so my maths is rubbish (hey - I work in IT!!) and I need someone's help here but,
would it be better to put the whole 150k into investments, thereby letting the interest accrue at the revenue. Could you outstrip their interest ? and possibly have an even bigger sum if we win ?

If you can achieve near to the rate they are charging, then there is not too much in it. You're effectively risking paying a bit more interest if we lose in return for the chance of keeping the interest earned if we win.

A lot depends on your tax situation. If you are a 40% taxpayer then it's very hard to keep pace with what they charge.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

CTD request

NW from Montpelier has kindly offered the following.

If you send her an email with the title

CTD - how much do I need to deposit?

she will respond with the amount you need to pay in to stop interest accruing ie. your total tax/nic liability (minus interest).

NOTE

Please do not ask unless you are genuinely considering taking out a CTD, especially at the moment when they are snowed under with tax returns.

[nuffsaid]

I thought we're still liable for Class 4 [NI], current 8%?

Yes Class 4 still applies to us.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/intro/selfemployed.htm#3

National Insurance contributions
You normally have to pay Class 2 National Insurance contributions and if your annual profits are over a certain amount you also pay Class 4 contributions.

Class 4 National Insurance contributions
The amount of Class 4 National Insurance contributions you have to pay for any tax year is based on your profits for that year. You pay 8 per cent on annual profits between £5,715 and £43,875 (2009-10) and 1 per cent on any profit over that amount.

This 8% + 1% makes a large difference to my CTD amount so I will need to get this confirmed.
I guess it's time for another email to MontP... although it's likely we will have been to the Supreme Court by the time they respond .


EDIT
Just seen DR's email above, so I may be wrong about the response time.

[sal626]

My Barrister mate just phoned me. He's been looking over the judgement and had the following observation:

The judge may have done us a favour. It's no longer about 2500 embattled people, it's about the whole tax planning industry, the way tax legislation is drafted and enforced. He compared our situation to the Battle of Waterloo. We've been keeping a regimented square before yesterday. Now when it appeared we were outnumbered and outgunned the Prussian army comes into sight. Or as he put it, the entire tax planning system. So hold your nerve.

Even Wellington lost the first engagements.

His view is that we're no longer 2500 people, but a whole army with many more stakeholders than on Wednesday. It's just a question of whether they want to join forces or not.

He noted that the Judge played both sides of the coin when considering the legality of the scheme and Padmore. The judgement opens the door to a bigger challenge than just ours.

And I liked this:

"I didn't want you to go on holiday thinking there's just you and 2499 others facing the State. I think your ranks have just swollen out of all 'proportion'. It's just a question of getting the momentum going. Even marshalling troops to invade Iraq took more than 24hrs. Your fight has just spilled onto the streets."

So let's see who wants to join the fight.

Top Post

I’m not caught in BN66, - (although do have an enquiry on another scheme I used to be in) but just wanted to say that it is hugely unfair that HMRC are trying to apply taxes retrospectively.

But your barrister friend may be right. When the “really rich” start realising that this retro approach could start affecting them, I expect they will bring the full force of some very highly paid and learned lawyers.

I’ve been a silent spectator on this for a while, but you have my support.

Happy to join any campaign/protest etc…. I can probably drum up a few more contractors who are currently in various different schemes - and speaking to them today - they are all shocked and angry that HMRC are doing this (many were not aware of what BN66 is about).

I guess it’s time to be proactive….

Hang in there folks, "this too shall pass"

[nuffsaid]

Thanks for your support sal626. The more the merrier!

[SantaClaus]

My Barrister mate just phoned me. He's been looking over the judgement and had the following observation:

The judge may have done us a favour. It's no longer about 2500 embattled people, it's about the whole tax planning industry, the way tax legislation is drafted and enforced. He compared our situation to the Battle of Waterloo. We've been keeping a regimented square before yesterday. Now when it appeared we were outnumbered and outgunned the Prussian army comes into sight. Or as he put it, the entire tax planning system. So hold your nerve.

Even Wellington lost the first engagements.

His view is that we're no longer 2500 people, but a whole army with many more stakeholders than on Wednesday. It's just a question of whether they want to join forces or not.

He noted that the Judge played both sides of the coin when considering the legality of the scheme and Padmore. The judgement opens the door to a bigger challenge than just ours.

And I liked this:

"I didn't want you to go on holiday thinking there's just you and 2499 others facing the State. I think your ranks have just swollen out of all 'proportion'. It's just a question of getting the momentum going. Even marshalling troops to invade Iraq took more than 24hrs. Your fight has just spilled onto the streets."

So let's see who wants to join the fight.

Thats a great post to start the weekend.

Thanks TSBT

[DonkeyRhubarb]

The Judge had no choice in the matter

That's my view, and that of several other people I've spoken to.

He was only appointed as a High Court judge a few months ago. There's no way a single judge, let alone a junior ranking one, could do otherwise in a case of such significance.

He knew what he had to do before he even set foot in the courtroom.

He's made a bit of a name for himself by branding us as tax dodgers. Therefore, job done.

The ruling was given in such a way that it would be booted "upstairs".

Just to set your expectations, I believe the Court of Appeal will do likewise, and this won't get proper consideration until it reaches the Supreme Court.

[portseven]

My Barrister mate just phoned me. He's been looking over the judgement and had the following observation:

The judge may have done us a favour. It's no longer about 2500 embattled people, it's about the whole tax planning industry, the way tax legislation is drafted and enforced. He compared our situation to the Battle of Waterloo. We've been keeping a regimented square before yesterday. Now when it appeared we were outnumbered and outgunned the Prussian army comes into sight. Or as he put it, the entire tax planning system. So hold your nerve.

Even Wellington lost the first engagements.

His view is that we're no longer 2500 people, but a whole army with many more stakeholders than on Wednesday. It's just a question of whether they want to join forces or not.

He noted that the Judge played both sides of the coin when considering the legality of the scheme and Padmore. The judgement opens the door to a bigger challenge than just ours.

And I liked this:

"I didn't want you to go on holiday thinking there's just you and 2499 others facing the State. I think your ranks have just swollen out of all 'proportion'. It's just a question of getting the momentum going. Even marshalling troops to invade Iraq took more than 24hrs. Your fight has just spilled onto the streets."
w
So let's see who wants to join the fight.

Great post, and just what I needed!

I also wonder if some off the leaders of the other political leaders of the main parties take note of what has happened, and view it as ammunition to throw at Brown. Not only has he racked up a f**king great debt, but he has made the country a poor place for companies to invest in, something that the country sorley needs to make a decent sustained recovery

My way of seeing it is, that Brown has not only stripped the bank of all its assets but has shat everywhere so as to deter anyone wanting to go in there again!

Lots to answer for that man.....

[bananarepublic]

CTD - Beware

Do not take out a CTD unless you are aware that the money will basically be stuck there until this mess is resolved.

eg. Deposit 100K now. Mess resolved in 10 years - we win. Amount to withdraw = 100K + paltry interest. It may have saved you some sleepless nights but monetarily not great - to a large extent negating the benefit of the scheme.

If we lost however and you withdrew the money a day before you would only get 100K back (+paltry interest) whereas your tax bill would have blown up out of all proportion.

Better to hedge your risks IMO - take out a CTD for most of the liability and invest the rest - assuming you have the money. Tax interest is simple whereas money you invest compounds. Over many years this is a very powerful way of reducing your liability - assuming your return is greater than HMRC's interest rate.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

HMRC Compassion

Anyone thinking deals/concessions/compassion/sympathy/a shoulder to cry on will be forthcoming from HMRC should read this. Especially the last 3 paragraphs with comment from HMRC.

http://www.contractoruk.com/news/004726.html

I'll leave you with one final thought before I go and have my steak and chips.

I say we stick together and tell them to **** off