BN66 - the road to Judicial Review

[KiwiGuy]

I have been told Timms' non-response is on the agenda.

Let's hope they don't pull any punches.

oh i look forward to the outcome of this

[arandomname]

Apologies if this has been discussed before (there's an awful lot to search through and I know the site, theyworkforyou, is often quoted here).

While searching for other stuff I came across this old chestnut, a house of commons debate from 1997. It discusses the then finance act still under a conservative government:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debate...peaker%3A19438

Scroll down to find Timms' criticism of the Tory legislation, to quote he says:


"I wish briefly to put three specific questions to the Minister. First, why have the Government taken so long to stop this abuse? The original announcement of the proposals on 8 October last appeared to be linked to Reuters' proposed special dividend, but the Government could have acted much earlier. Special dividends were used in the bids for a number of electricity companies in 1995 and by Lloyds bank when it merged with the Trustee Savings bank. The Chancellor could have taken action before the 1995 Budget. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, West (Mr. Pearson) tabled an amendment to the Finance Bill following that, and the Government did not act. If those bids were not enough, Granada's bid for Forte should have made the Chancellor sit up and take action no later than January 1996.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, West mentioned what Graham Searjeant said in The Times on 22 January 1996. The problem was well known more than a year ago, so I want to know why the Government are taking so long to deal with the abuse.

Secondly, why did the Inland Revenue not use existing anti-avoidance legislation to tackle the problem? As a number of hon. Members have said, the powers in sections 703 to 709 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 exist to allow the Inland Revenue to cancel tax advantages from certain types of transactions in securities. The growth in the use of special dividend and buy-back schemes was probably prompted by the Revenue's apparent unwillingness to use those existing powers.

Stephen Edge wrote in The Tax Journal on 10 October, referring to the proposal that we are debating: "This is probably an unnecessary change if the provisions of s703 were applied properly and it is somewhat puzzling that the Inland Revenue has not responded to the press clamour by saying that it already had adequate weapons to deal with this abuse." Thirdly, why has the schedule been so widely drawn? Why does it not target the problem that has been identified? As it is drawn, it could catch almost any dividend, as Stephen Edge noted in The Tax Journal. The schedule is riddled with complexity and uncertainty, and clever people will probably find ways around it.

Those are my three questions to the Minister: why did the Government wait so long, why was the existing legislation not used by the Inland Revenue, and why has the schedule been drawn so wide?"


So existing legislation is already good enough and the Tory government are at fault for waiting a year to sort the problem. Clever people can find ways around legislation (and no criticism is made of this). Is the 1988 legislation he mentions related to the one often quote in relation to BN66?

[Mettafort]

Advice on CTD Process

Hi,

Recently I purchased a CTD, which finally arrived this weekend (took 4 weeks to arrive). When enquiring as to whether the HMRC had my money, a lady their explained that the CTD will not automatically be applied to my MTM case. However I dont believe she actually defined what the extra step was. I have since misplaced my cumbernauld number of the person I was speaking too. Can anyone advise on what else I need to do? Better still, does anyone have the number for someone at cumbernauld?

Thank you,

mf.

[OnYourBikeGB]

Rant

I've just logged in for a quick rant. I've been listening to 5 live, they're discussing the 'bewilderment and shock' in the House Of Commons on the retrospective nature of the expenses repayments. They were only following the rules, they have done nothing wrong. Part of me was laughing out loud, the other part felt sick to the stomach. Hypocritical, two-faced, self-serving bunch of f***ers. They won't be made to repay, they'll just have to 'face their party'. Over a few grand! I face £50K in interest alone. I face near ruin. I was threatened with asset seizure. WTF?

We couldn't ask for a better backdrop to the JR. I've argued before that we wouldn't have public sympathy for our case, which I still think is true, but if we were to lose and that bunch of sh*ts get away with it, well then, that's a different matter. Nothing the public likes more than the good scandal on how our political masters like to twist the law to their own advantage. The timing could be interesting, we'll be running up to the election, Labour will be desparate. If we lose, I'd love to drive that nail into their coffin.

When this Government goes, I will dance on its grave.

[BrilloPad]

Hi,

Recently I purchased a CTD, which finally arrived this weekend (took 4 weeks to arrive). When enquiring as to whether the HMRC had my money, a lady their explained that the CTD will not automatically be applied to my MTM case. However I dont believe she actually defined what the extra step was. I have since misplaced my cumbernauld number of the person I was speaking too. Can anyone advise on what else I need to do? Better still, does anyone have the number for someone at cumbernauld?

Thank you,

mf.

I dont think you need to do anything. You just keep the CTD. You can apply it to the MTM thing if we lose. Or more likely take the money when we win.

[ContractIn]

I dont think you need to do anything. You just keep the CTD. You can apply it to the MTM thing if we lose. Or more likely take the money when we win.

Yep agree. The CTD office (can't think of the name) shouldn't even know what the reason is for the purchase; and likewise don't notify HMRC that you have purchased one. If you have received a CN make sure MTM are aware and get your case under appeal.

If we lose, send the certificate to hmrc, if not cash it in.

On a seperate note, I knew there would be discussion on the forum re: MP expenses pay back. I have a good mind to write to my MP and ask him how he now likes it!! Provided no support or sympathy to my case when I was communicating to him.

[Mettafort]

RE: Advice on CTD Process

Thanks for replying BrilloPad and ContractIn....

When I rang to enquire as to why I hadnt received a confirm about my CHAPS transfer, I ended up speaking to someone at some department (and I am a bit peed now I cant remember which department it was - got passed around all over the place). This someone, a women, actually told me I had clearly misunderstood the CTD process. She stated that just because I have a CTD doesnt mean I wont accrue interest on the assumed debt due to the MTM scheme. Various other things were said but I never got an explanation about that last statement, since she clearly implied that interest would still be accruing....

MF.

[Ratican]

Thanks for replying BrilloPad and ContractIn....

When I rang to enquire as to why I hadnt received a confirm about my CHAPS transfer, I ended up speaking to someone at some department (and I am a bit peed now I cant remember which department it was - got passed around all over the place). This someone, a women, actually told me I had clearly misunderstood the CTD process. She stated that just because I have a CTD doesnt mean I wont accrue interest on the assumed debt due to the MTM scheme. Various other things were said but I never got an explanation about that last statement, since she clearly implied that interest would still be accruing....

MF.

I think that what she said is in one way correct. Yes, the interest will continue to accrue; but only until (the unlikely day) where you have to pay the money to them.

At that stage you would simply tell them you have a CTD for £X and they will recalculate the interest up to the point where you established the CTD.

That is how I understand it anyway. There are some links on the first page of this thread which will take you to more information.

They are not supposed to know that you have a CTD; so as far as they are concerned the interest continues to grow.

[KiwiGuy]

I have been told Timms' non-response is on the agenda.

Let's hope they don't pull any punches.

any news?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

any news?

Hopefully I'll find out tomorrow what they plan to do next. If it involves another letter to Timms then we won't get to see this until it's been drafted and approved by the committee at a future meeting.