Is it best to go self employed or umbrella - from a CSA point of view?

[Ratkins]

The conclusion to this tale is...ongoing.

Even the limited company being a legal entity in its own right can be waived by as they put it 'lifting the corporate veil'!

Take heed of the above as it fits with my own personal experience.

This is about 10 years ago but my ex-wife and her solicitor found out about this 'lifting the corporate veil' and used it to their advantage (or not as it turned out). To be clear, I had been doing absolutely everything above board: I was even paying myself fully through PAYE rather than drawing dividends to make sure there were no complications. However during the negotiations on maintenance they discovered that under the CSA rules and established practice of that time, with nothing more than a request from my ex, the CSA would treat the entire company turnover (even including VAT!!!) as my personal gross income. Applying their formula to this would result in me having to pay my ex-wife 1800 a month despite the fact that I was actually taking home 1680 at the time and to give a bit of perspective, when we separated we had been living comfortably with me taking home only 1500 a month. Suddenly the amount my ex wanted shot up from the 1300 she had originally demanded, way beyond the 900 I had counter-offered, to no less than 1800 a month or they'd place the case before the CSA.

I couldn't believe it. I yelled (so to speak) at my solicitor so she arranged for me to go see a barrister who specialised in this area. I yelled (really - but I gather he was used to it!) at the barister and he basically said that while there were a few cases like this and attempts were being made to force through a change in how the CSA dealt with these, for the time being there was nothing to be done. His best advice was to become unemployed before the CSA could make a ruling. I even tried reasoning with my ex-wife. Surely she could see that paying her every penny I earned plus 120 a month was not exactly going to make it possible for me to continue doing what I was doing and that was in no one's interest, least of all the kids. Stupidly she took the view that if this was the law then she was legally entitled to 1800 and that's what she wanted.

As a result, before the damage could be fully done, I declined my next contract renewal, wound up the company and that was the end of my contracting career. Later I did get employed (permanent job) and paid maintenance but I didn't earn anything like what I was earning before and my kids grew up in much poorer circumstances than I would have liked.

The moral of this story: Be careful when working out how to best organise yourself with respect to child support because the combination of stupid rules and a vindictive ex-wife can equal a total and utter disaster, not just for you but for your kids as well.

[ratewhore]

I had the judge say the same thing to me re the corporate veil. Plus they threatened me with forensic accountants.

When it came down to it, I had to get a valuation of the company (many varied ways which come up with drastically different valuations), then they add that value to your personal worth, before working out the %age to give to the ex-wife.

Looking at the big picture, it took me two months to make back the lump sum I had to pay my ex-wife so, as I said earlier in the thread, bite the bullet, be humble and enjoy your kids...

[Mojito]

Employers NIC through Umbrella?

Do the CSA take employers NIC into account as well as employees on the Umbrella payslip? I was thinking that going through an umbrella and trusting the CSA to vary the monthly CM up and down was a good idea but having read the above am not so sure - it sounds like I may be being a little naive...?

My skills are a little niche so can be on a good whack for some gigs but then have to fall back into less lucrative roles when my niche is not so much in demand and benchtime is not out of the question.

I'm looking for the best way to make sure I don't get crippled financially by a bitter ex but at the same time want to make sure my kids lives are well as well funded as possible in both of their homes going forward.

[supasmarty]

please help

Hi. I really need some help. I have a 3 and a half year old daughter and a bitter and twisted ex. I've been paying csa from the start 64 pw (I'm a self employed electrician). I've been to solicitors to try and get access after she stopped me seeing her.

Nearly 14 months ago we agreed a contact once a month for 2 hours, but to gradually increace that amount. It kinda worked for 8 months, but from the start of this year its been more like every 2 months up untill july. I havent seen her since then as I was told from now on i can only see her when it conveniant for my ex. Basicly she's a control freak who doesnt want me taking our daughter away from her.

So ive told her that from now on i will only pay csa after ive seen my daughter. So she's set the csa on me. I'm trying to save to take her to court (I've been told [this will cost a] min of £9000). I'm scared that the csa are gonna try and take more money off me so i want to go limited but dont know how to do this

I just want to be a dad to my gir. My ex lives 200 miles away so i drive 6 hours (400 miles) to spend 2 hours with her. I'm not gonna give up but with solicitors, csa, fuel, and her its becoming so difficult.

Any advice would be appreciated

thanks

[Scrag Meister]

Hi. I really need some help. I have a 3 and a half year old daughter and a bitter and twisted ex. I've been paying csa from the start 64 pw (I'm a self employed electrician). I've been to solicitors to try and get access after she stopped me seeing her.

Nearly 14 months ago we agreed a contact once a month for 2 hours, but to gradually increace that amount. It kinda worked for 8 months, but from the start of this year its been more like every 2 months up untill july. I havent seen her since then as I was told from now on i can only see her when it conveniant for my ex. Basicly she's a control freak who doesnt want me taking our daughter away from her.

So ive told her that from now on i will only pay csa after ive seen my daughter. So she's set the csa on me. I'm trying to save to take her to court (I've been told [this will cost a] min of £9000). I'm scared that the csa are gonna try and take more money off me so i want to go limited but dont know how to do this

I just want to be a dad to my gir. My ex lives 200 miles away so i drive 6 hours (400 miles) to spend 2 hours with her. I'm not gonna give up but with solicitors, csa, fuel, and her its becoming so difficult.

Any advice would be appreciated

thanks

I'm not sure how going Ltd will make much difference to your maintenance figure as I am sure the CSA have permission to dig through company accounts too.

I was lucky as the ex and I came to a mutual arrangement which the divorce courts accepted, so never had to worry about the CSA, although I went with their 10,15,20,25% rule.

[Proud Dad]

Ditto

Hi. I really need some help. I have a 3 and a half year old daughter and a bitter and twisted ex. I've been paying csa from the start 64 pw (I'm a self employed electrician). I've been to solicitors to try and get access after she stopped me seeing her.

Nearly 14 months ago we agreed a contact once a month for 2 hours, but to gradually increace that amount. It kinda worked for 8 months, but from the start of this year its been more like every 2 months up untill july. I havent seen her since then as I was told from now on i can only see her when it conveniant for my ex. Basicly she's a control freak who doesnt want me taking our daughter away from her.

So ive told her that from now on i will only pay csa after ive seen my daughter. So she's set the csa on me. I'm trying to save to take her to court (I've been told [this will cost a] min of £9000). I'm scared that the csa are gonna try and take more money off me so i want to go limited but dont know how to do this

I just want to be a dad to my gir. My ex lives 200 miles away so i drive 6 hours (400 miles) to spend 2 hours with her. I'm not gonna give up but with solicitors, csa, fuel, and her its becoming so difficult.

Any advice would be appreciated

thanks

Hi. I'm in a similar position myself. I have for years been employed and accountable. I have paid my money for my daughter, been totally independent with clothing etc and since my Ex gave up sharing the journeys of 350 miles, I have had to do this myself - which I have done. The CSA exclude this high cost of contact from their calculations and I lost my job last year. I am now self-employed and she has recently gone t the CSA for more money. She has cleaners and is comfortably off with a new Husband and child, but she wants more for reasons I can't say. I would like to optimise my income to be beneficial to my Daughter, but I don't want to be bullied into having my income taken off me and used in a way I can see is not for my Daughter! I have always been a fair parent and paid more than my fair share in money and effort for my Daughter. I need to get my Ex to re-share the journeys (which I think may have to be done through the Court?) and set up a fair assessment for my Daughter without taking my New Wife's right to my income too? Any advice would be much appreciated?

[LandRover]

Beware the joining up of government

Universal Credit that will be introduced this year, which combined with RTI payroll, and further use of credit agency databases by goverment departments, all amount to a far more joined up approach to investigating peoples financial affairs.

AIMHO people thinking that dividends souldnt be informed to the CSA are creating stress and uncertainty for themselves.

[Mojito]

The sh*tty end of the stick

Yup the CSA calculations are a blunt instrument and do not really accommodate situations such as yours. If you lived close enough (I have a 100-mile round trip a couple of times a week) it's ok, but 350 miles is a bugger. A few things you have to accept, no matter how unfair you may find them:
- you have to cover the cost and time of your contact journeys yourself, not deducted from maintenance
- you can't force your ex to share the journeys, only to facilitate contact by making your child available
- the enforcement of frustrating contract is - with a few high profile exceptions - laughable and can prove counter productive
- you have no say in how your ex spends the child maintenance, if it pays for the cleaner then c'est la vie
- you are not alone in your position

The CSA have a formula that works fine for salaried people but can be problematic for Ltd company owners as this thread shows. You HAVE to pay your 15% to your ex and on time, don't try to withhold payment or arbitrarily reduce - it will probably backfire.

I suggest you get a membership of Families need Fathers as you'll get a wealth of advice in both dealing with access problems and also with the CSA. It's not easy and I can see why (although not empathise with) frustrated Dads give up given the way the dice is loaded.

The situation you're in is temporary, so while yes you do have the dirty end of the sh*t stick, it will improve as it stabilises. When your daughter is old enough to realise and appreciate the effort you have put in to maintain your relationship with her, it suddenly becomes worthwhile.

Good luck fella!

[Jessica@WhiteFieldTax]

(which I think may have to be done through the Court?)

Away from day to day work, I'm a unpaid trustee of a Family Mediation Service. Mediation is a court approved - in fact preferred - alternative to court action and, hopefully less expensive - it does depend on both parties being will to sit down and talk.

From this month, legal aid isn't available for family law in courts other than issues like domestic violence, but it is still available for mediation (may not affect the typical member of this forum, but maybe their spouses).

Try and give mediation a go.

[tractor]

...

There was a thread on this a while ago to which many of us contributed experience.

Here

It's up to you how you manage the problem, there will always be people who disagree with your actions, I posted at length how I dealt with it. you are welcome to take or leave it as far as advice goes. Lots of advice in the thread and you will only know whether its good or bad once you try it

As far as mediation goes, given that the OP has already said the ex has moved as far away to make it difficult for them I doubt mediation is a likely solution in all honesty.

Hope it works out ok for you.