Real Arrangements letter

[contractor58]

Has anyone actually managed to get an end client to sign a 'Real Arrangements' letter as described in the PCG's guide to IR35?

I work for a large multi-national and nobody wants to touch the thing. Not because they disagree with its contents but more because nobody is prepared to put their signature to anything like that without referring it to legal departments first (even though it is not a legal document) for fear of getting into trouble.

To be honest I wouldn't sign it if the shoe was on the other foot. Large companies, such as invetsmnet banks, have got their backs well covered so there is very little in it for them.

[Denny]

Has anyone actually managed to get an end client to sign a 'Real Arrangements' letter as described in the PCG's guide to IR35?

I work for a large multi-national and nobody wants to touch the thing. Not because they disagree with its contents but more because nobody is prepared to put their signature to anything like that without referring it to legal departments first (even though it is not a legal document) for fear of getting into trouble.

To be honest I wouldn't sign it if the shoe was on the other foot. Large companies, such as invetsmnet banks, have got their backs well covered so there is very little in it for them.

They shouldn't really be necessary if the EB has confirmed in writing that the contract with the client is back to back with the IR35 exempt one they've got with you.

Just tape record the interview next time you discuss you terms and then send them a confirmation letter of your own on letterhead that outlines the commercial relationship in place. That should do it. Otherwise, it might help to just write a two liner that just confirms that the arrangement is as agreed verbally - a B2B commercial relationship - and that you both intend that the working arrangment is not one of employment. That should be enough if accompanied by the IR35 exempt contract and actual working practices to support that. A whole string of dos and don'ts with checkboxes is likely to put them off and frankly may get you into more problems as some of the questions about on site practices are likely to be crossed than ticked making the IRs job easier for them. If you think about it, some clients make think that by agreeing to some of your terms anything they ask that strays outside of that may make them vulnerable to being sued as employers should they want to invoke their termination clause without having to give the statutory 4 weeks minimum as they would for an employee. Make sure you do have a SoW in place though which outlines your role as a project of deliverables not a job spec job role.

A formal CWA document with a whole list of tick box questions is more likely to be signed by a direct client who will take you, not a large multi national with a legal dept and an EB in the way as a limited co.

[Lockhouse]

Has anyone actually managed to get an end client to sign a 'Real Arrangements' letter as described in the PCG's guide to IR35?

I work for a large multi-national and nobody wants to touch the thing. Not because they disagree with its contents but more because nobody is prepared to put their signature to anything like that without referring it to legal departments first (even though it is not a legal document) for fear of getting into trouble.

To be honest I wouldn't sign it if the shoe was on the other foot. Large companies, such as invetsmnet banks, have got their backs well covered so there is very little in it for them.

I've got on-side clients to sign them but the only way I've got anyone at an Investment Bank to sign one was when I was actually being investigated and the IR were turning the heat up on HR. The manager then got permission from HR to sign my COA. All you can do is lay down a marker with the chief permie and say "Look, I'm in business on my own account" so that hopefully when the sh*t hits the fan some of it has stuck and they remember.

[Denny]

I've got on-side clients to sign them but the only way I've got anyone at an Investment Bank to sign one was when I was actually being investigated and the IR were turning the heat up on HR. The manager then got permission from HR to sign my COA. All you can do is lay down a marker with the chief permie and say "Look, I'm in business on my own account" so that hopefully when the sh*t hits the fan some of it has stuck and they remember.

I would guess that working at an investment bank was near impossible as outside iR35 anyway.

[Denny]

Has anyone actually managed to get an end client to sign a 'Real Arrangements' letter as described in the PCG's guide to IR35?

I work for a large multi-national and nobody wants to touch the thing. Not because they disagree with its contents but more because nobody is prepared to put their signature to anything like that without referring it to legal departments first (even though it is not a legal document) for fear of getting into trouble.

To be honest I wouldn't sign it if the shoe was on the other foot. Large companies, such as invetsmnet banks, have got their backs well covered so there is very little in it for them.

There is if they can't keep their contractors. The bunkum they assume to be in place by forcing contractors to take 1 -4 weeks break every year to avoid employment rights is not correct either (shout 99). In fact, they are more likely to be perceived as controllers and employers by acting in this way.

[Lockhouse]

I would guess that working at an investment bank was near impossible as outside iR35 anyway.

Far from it. I've been outside since IR35 started (and been investigated). No Direction and Control and no MOO.

[Denny]

Far from it. I've been outside since IR35 started (and been investigated). No Direction and Control and no MOO.

I've never worked in the banks, but they just seemed to me to be very regimented with all of these forced breaks I keep hearing about. I guess they're not.