Definition of "professional accountants" in the context of MSC providers

[THEPUMA]

Joel, you are starting to sound a little desperate now.

Lets talk about your Company for a while seeing as we are considering credibility here.

You say you are Hillier Hopkins, but you are not, you are HH Contractor Services Ltd, T/a Incorporate-uk. The website you advertise on the main HH site links to a registered domain holding page.

Not quite Simon

I am a partner in Hillier Hopkins LLP. Hillier Hopkins LLP is regulated by the ICAEW. All of our clients are clients of HHLLP.

I am not the one who is desparately trying to pretend that my firm is regulated by the ICAEW.

[simondolan]

Not quite Simon

I am a partner in Hillier Hopkins LLP. Hillier Hopkins LLP is regulated by the ICAEW. All of our clients are clients of HHLLP.

I am not the one who is desparately trying to pretend that my firm is regulated by the ICAEW.

http://www.hillierhopkins.co.uk/group_co.htm

Not what it says here.

Oh, and I would not for one second pretend to be registered with ICAEW. We are regulated by the Chartered Institute of Taxation, as well as having over 30 qualified staff - ACA, ACCA, FCCA, ACMA.

Lets also be clear - are you a salaried or equity partner?

[philip@wellwoodhoyle]

ICAEW is NOT the only recognised and respected accountancy body. ICAEW members may like to think they have the upper hand, but other qualifications are EQUAL, such as Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA). The other chartered bodies are likewise respected and recognised as equal (or better) in their specialised fields, such as Chartered Management Accountants and Chartered Tax Advisers. I really can't see where all this paranoia about being ICAEW is coming from - HMRC have never mentioned ICAEW as being their preferred accountancy body, in fact they don't seem to differentiate between qualified and unqualified firms, let alone between the equal standing professional chartered bodies. In fact when HMRC started their "working together" group, the first accountancy bodies were ICAEW AND CIOT (Simon's highly respected tax specialist accountancy body) - several other bodies (ACCA, CIMA, etc) joined shortly afterwards, so HMRC are in active regular dialogue with most (or all) the main accountancy bodies, so why should they suddenly decide ICAEW are the only ones exempt? It just doesn't hold water and doesn't make sense.

Just for clarity, banks and building societies include several chartered bodies (not just ICAEW) on their "approved" list for mortgage references etc. Under Company Law, ACCA members (and members of some other professonal bodies) are allowed to undertake statutory audits (not just ICAEW) by applying to their own professional body to be a registered auditor. For clarity. I am an ACCA member and my firm is regulated by ACCA and is a registered auditor - I don't look down on other professional bodies, but neither do I look up to the ICAEW. I say again, there is NOTHING in law or practice that suggests ICAEW is the only or the best accountancy body or will be the only accountancy body exempt under the new MSC rules. I think it is nothing more than wishful thinking from ICAEW members (or perhaps just one member).

[Mickmanus]

[QUOTE=THEPUMA]Simon

I agree entirely. In addition to being a professional accountant, you must not promote and facilitate the use of companies to provide the services of individuals.

This thread was not particularly targetted at you. It was generic.

But when you say you "qualify", I am still unclear whether or not SJD as a firm is regulated by the ICAEW. Can you clarify?

What purpose do you think you serve by being antagonistic to those who give their time freely to promote their services in a proper manner?

[THEPUMA]

http://www.hillierhopkins.co.uk/group_co.htm

Not what it says here.

Oh, and I would not for one second pretend to be registered with ICAEW. We are regulated by the Chartered Institute of Taxation, as well as having over 30 qualified staff - ACA, ACCA, FCCA, ACMA.

Lets also be clear - are you a salaried or equity partner?

Simon

Things change. The bottom line is that our clients are clients of Hillier Hopkins LLP, which is regulated by the ICAEW, as I have said all along.

I can't quite see the relevance to this argument of whether I am a salaried or equity partner. You may think that you know the answer and that it somehow weakens my argument. I doubt you do, as this is not information that HHLLP release publically and for this reason it would be inappropriate for me to answer your question.

Mickmanus

The thread has become antagonistic and I apologise for me part in this. However, I don't think I am solely to blame. It may seem that way because I am the only one putting one side of the story. You may think that this is because I am wrong but I am simply trying to add some balance that you will not get if you only hear from the regular posters on here (ie contractor specialist, non-chartered accountants).

I think it is important that the contractors on here are at least aware that there is a school of thought (and not just mine, as I have previously illustrated) that clients of such accountants are at some risk (albeit unfairly in my opinion) of being caught by some dreadfully vague legislation which could be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Joel

[AnotherIan]

Simon

Things change. The bottom line is that our clients are clients of Hillier Hopkins LLP, which is regulated by the ICAEW, as I have said all along.

I can't quite see the relevance to this argument of whether I am a salaried or equity partner. You may think that you know the answer and that it somehow weakens my argument. I doubt you do, as this is not information that HHLLP release publically and for this reason it would be inappropriate for me to answer your question.

Mickmanus

The thread has become antagonistic and I apologise for me part in this. However, I don't think I am solely to blame. It may seem that way because I am the only one putting one side of the story. You may think that this is because I am wrong but I am simply trying to add some balance that you will not get if you only hear from the regular posters on here (ie contractor specialist, non-chartered accountants).

I think it is important that the contractors on here are at least aware that there is a school of thought (and not just mine, as I have previously illustrated) that clients of such accountants are at some risk (albeit unfairly in my opinion) of being caught by some dreadfully vague legislation which could be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Joel

I think there's alot of frustration at the moment. The HMRC, well government in general, make it up as they go along and that is particularly apparent with this change. Legislation should be specific and if a case is missed, redrafted. The current raft of bland, unclear legislation obfuscates and that will ultimately lead to a world of pain, probably to more innocent than guilty.

I've read your comments with interest, and those of everyone here and at shout99, etc. I'm particularly frustrated with it but so far confident using someone like SJD through my ltd would mean I'm exempt and so are SJD.

[simondolan]

Simon

Things change. The bottom line is that our clients are clients of Hillier Hopkins LLP, which is regulated by the ICAEW, as I have said all along.

Joel

Ah I see. So the Hillier Hopkins website is entirely out of date, inaccurate and misleading then?

http://www.hillierhopkins.co.uk/group_co.htm

Also, can you please illustrate exactly how your firm (HH Contractor Services Ltd) differs from say SJD, NW, etc?? Indeed, SJD act for around 1000 clients who are nothing to do with contracting at all. How many non contractor clients does HH Contractor Services act for?

This is taken directly from the Hiller Hopkins website:

"HH Contractor Services Limited is a new Hillier Hopkins Group company, trading as Incorporate-uk.com from the Watford Office.

Joel Harding is the key adviser for contractors regarding IR35, and over the last few years, has accumulated quite a portfolio of contractor clients. In response to this increase and following discussions with a temp recruitment agency, Incorporate-uk.com, was established to deal mainly with foreign temporary accountants who have come over to England to work.

The basic premise is this: It is far better, tax wise, for contractors to be set up as a Limited Company rather than work for a company such as a recruitment agency, providing they can comply with IR35. The temps become a director and shareholder of their own limited company. "

[cailin dana]

Crikey!

Do you not realise how pathetic you all sound......???

[THEPUMA]

Cailin Dana

Yes I do. But having been asked a couple of straight questions, I feel obliged to answer them.

Simon

Yes it is out of date. It will be changed shortly.

Since you ask, we are different from SJD, NW, etc in a number of ways.

Firstly, our proportion of contractor clients is much lower. Probably less than 5% of our turnover.

Secondly, we are much less prominent and, as such, a less likely target for HMRC.

Thirdly, the old ICAEW chestnut which we have discussed at length previously and may or may not be relevant.

Joel

[Cowboy Bob]

I currently don't use any of NW, SJD, 1st Accountancy, or HH since I have been using a local accountant. Since I have moved my accountant is no longer local and there have been thoughts of changing companies.

From reading this thread I can guarantee 100% that I will never use Hillier Hopkins or any firm associated with them. The pathetic attempt to run down other companies/competitors strikes me as spiteful at best and completely misleading at worst. Joel, you need to learn some professionalism...