Investing In Vintage Wine

**Gonzo** · 2 April 2007, 16:50

Originally posted by Ivor1

Anyone done thisn Ive seen a few companies that will manage it for you, say its tax free, and say around 15% return, most looking for min 10K investment. Seems to good to be true and not many companies doing it so am I missing something ?

It would be no good for me. I would drink it all.

**meridian** · 2 April 2007, 20:31

Originally posted by Ivor1

Anyone done thisn Ive seen a few companies that will manage it for you, say its tax free, and say around 15% return, most looking for min 10K investment. Seems to good to be true and not many companies doing it so am I missing something ?

I did some work for the DTI back in 98/99; these and the whisky companies were hot topics for company investigation back then. Seems a number a disreputable firms were taking money off punters when they didn't have the goods to back it up....
You might want to ask a few questions or research a bit more before putting your money down. How do they come up with a 15% return? Do they physically hold the stock? Is the stock held in the UK or offshore? Do they purchase wine specifically for you (and microchip the bottle(s) as yours) or does your cash go into a central fund, where if there's trouble there is nothing that's yours for the receiver to return...

Hth

**AnotherIan** · 2 April 2007, 21:36

Originally posted by meridian

I did some work for the DTI back in 98/99; these and the whisky companies were hot topics for company investigation back then. Seems a number a disreputable firms were taking money off punters when they didn't have the goods to back it up....
You might want to ask a few questions or research a bit more before putting your money down. How do they come up with a 15% return? Do they physically hold the stock? Is the stock held in the UK or offshore? Do they purchase wine specifically for you (and microchip the bottle(s) as yours) or does your cash go into a central fund, where if there's trouble there is nothing that's yours for the receiver to return...

Hth

I agree, there have been a number of high profile cases recently where premium bottles have turned out to be rubbish. I'm sure you can make money this way, but I personally wouldn't put that responsibility in the hands of a third party without understanding exactly what I was buying and on what terms. With that knowledge you could avoid a broker and take all the profit.

**Lockhouse** · 3 April 2007, 08:51

I pay a certain amount of cash each month and a buyer purchases wine on my behalf which is kept in the buyer's cellars until it's ready for drinking. I've been doing it for a few years now so I have cases becoming ready for drinking pretty much year on year. I do have the option of selling some cases that have a market value, but in my opinion wine is to be drunk and enjoyed with friends.

Investing in wine is problematic because you have to rely on experts to make the decisions for you. They will always get rich before you do.

**lukemg** · 3 April 2007, 09:06

Brilliant - wanna buy some land ?It's going to get developed and we will all be rich !!
You must be mad, I would never touch something like this, even if I personally knew the people involved. Chuck it in a shares ISA, with a properly regulated investment company (fidelity, jupiter etc) if it is piling up (mine are averaging 13.5% annual return). Or pay off/extend your house.
Timeshare anyone ?

**Ivor1** · 3 April 2007, 09:19

13.5% thats good

What funds did you invest in ? I defo need to sort my finances out savings just sitting in high interest account 5.75% but after 40% tax its rubbish.

Im relunctant to use a financial advisors as I dont really trust them, did you just make educated decisions yourself or sort advice ?

**lukemg** · 3 April 2007, 10:43

Fidelity Europe Trst,Special Sits, Global Special Sits,S.E. Asia Trst. Skandia Best UK ideas. JPMF UK dynamic. JUPITER Income Trust,UK Growth , Europe fund. Schroeder US smlr comps. Virgin (All share tracker). Gartmore Euro sel spcl opps.
Started in about 97 (through the 2000-2001 crash) and invested what I can each year (had a few lean ones when I had nowt spare !)
Returns have ranged from 1.8%/year - 25%/year (average is 13.5)
all in peps/isas - tax free and you don't even put them on your return.
Most are through a discount broker called Hargreaves Lansdowne - many funds have 5% fee for initial purchase, HL get big discounts from the volume of business.
They have a newsletter to give you some info concerning recommended funds but this is just a sales sheet and should be treated as such.
I could get rid of the lower performing funds but often last years dog turns into the stormer the following year so I buy and forget.
I have tried to get a range of funds from different companies but 65% uk, 20% europe few % US and global.
If I was starting now I would get the lowest cost FTSE or all share tracker I could find - look at fool.co.uk for info and 'best buys'. These are not actively managed and just follow the FTSE. These have very low costs and tend to outperform 70% of managed funds (the low costs help a lot with this)
2nd year - maybe a global best ideas fund.
3rd year - general UK managed fund

You can normally choose a few funds to spread your 7k ISA allowance around.
Pick whatever you fancy but GOLDEN RULES :

1. DO NOT TOUCH THIS CHOICE IF YOU WANT THE CASH IN LESS THAN 5 - 10 YEARS - YOU HAVE TO LET IT RIDE TO GET THE BENEFITS.
2. DON'T EVEN THINK OF TRYING TO CHASE/GUESS THE MARKET, YOU CAN'T DO IT. The 'technology' funds everyone piled into in 2000 are worth pennies now.
3. STICK WITH SOME GENERAL UK/FTSE TRACKER FUNDS TO START.
4. DONT PANIC ABOUT EVERY BUMP IN THE ROAD AND THINK ABOUT SELLING.

I am thinking of retiring around 55 because these investments are starting to turn into sizable funds producing returns to support me !
b*ll*cks to BTL !
PM me if you want to.

HTH

**PAH** · 3 April 2007, 11:46

How would you feel if there was another big crash? Just hope to be in a position to ride it out for another 5-10 years till it recovers?

I suppose index trackers are the safest as it will definately go back up again, it's just a matter of how long it'll take.

It's when you start putting chunks of money into specific companies that there's more of a risk, but that's probably where more reward is if you're a gambler as it is pretty much like putting money on a horse. Too many factors to get it right consistantly which is why I've been too much of a softy to risk my hard-earned on that route.

**glashIFA@Paramount** · 3 April 2007, 12:03

Originally posted by lukemg

Fidelity Europe Trst,Special Sits, Global Special Sits,S.E. Asia Trst. Skandia Best UK ideas. JPMF UK dynamic. JUPITER Income Trust,UK Growth , Europe fund. Schroeder US smlr comps. Virgin (All share tracker). Gartmore Euro sel spcl opps.
Started in about 97 (through the 2000-2001 crash) and invested what I can each year (had a few lean ones when I had nowt spare !)
Returns have ranged from 1.8%/year - 25%/year (average is 13.5)
all in peps/isas - tax free and you don't even put them on your return.
Most are through a discount broker called Hargreaves Lansdowne - many funds have 5% fee for initial purchase, HL get big discounts from the volume of business.
They have a newsletter to give you some info concerning recommended funds but this is just a sales sheet and should be treated as such.
I could get rid of the lower performing funds but often last years dog turns into the stormer the following year so I buy and forget.
I have tried to get a range of funds from different companies but 65% uk, 20% europe few % US and global.
If I was starting now I would get the lowest cost FTSE or all share tracker I could find - look at fool.co.uk for info and 'best buys'. These are not actively managed and just follow the FTSE. These have very low costs and tend to outperform 70% of managed funds (the low costs help a lot with this)
2nd year - maybe a global best ideas fund.
3rd year - general UK managed fund

You can normally choose a few funds to spread your 7k ISA allowance around.
Pick whatever you fancy but GOLDEN RULES :

1. DO NOT TOUCH THIS CHOICE IF YOU WANT THE CASH IN LESS THAN 5 - 10 YEARS - YOU HAVE TO LET IT RIDE TO GET THE BENEFITS.
2. DON'T EVEN THINK OF TRYING TO CHASE/GUESS THE MARKET, YOU CAN'T DO IT. The 'technology' funds everyone piled into in 2000 are worth pennies now.
3. STICK WITH SOME GENERAL UK/FTSE TRACKER FUNDS TO START.
4. DONT PANIC ABOUT EVERY BUMP IN THE ROAD AND THINK ABOUT SELLING.

I am thinking of retiring around 55 because these investments are starting to turn into sizable funds producing returns to support me !
b*ll*cks to BTL !
PM me if you want to.

HTH

Not even going to get into a discussion about whether IFAs are trustworthy or not, but as you've been good enough to post some free advice I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

Your golden rules are sound advice. Only concern would be investing into a Tracker at this time. You're right when you say they're not actively managed and that keeps the costs down, but the FTSE has more or less doubled in the last 3 years and i can't see that happening again going forward. I'd look at something like the Schroder UK Mid 250 instead of a FTSE Tracker. This is a quality fund with a good track record and has consistently outperformed the FTSE All Share. Costs a bit more but should be available via your normal route with a decent discount on initial costs.

Just a thought.

Investing In Vintage Wine