Support people outside of IR35

[gingerjedi]

How many on here do some kind of support work be it 1st 2nd or 3rd line and are working on the assumption that you are outside of IR35 and how do you justify it?

I am in this situation and despite my contract being quite IR35 friendly I still worry and just want others thoughts.

[mictech]

I'm support working in a HMRC call centre, and switching to ltd next few weeks. Will get my contract checked by qdos or B&C etc. If they say your out, your out and cover it with the insurance.

The ammount of case I've heard of on this board alone where HMRC have to pack in without enough evidence or bodged it! as all government departments do. chill out a bit you will give yourself a ulsa.

[gingerjedi]

I'm support working in a HMRC call centre, and switching to ltd next few weeks. Will get my contract checked by qdos or B&C etc. If they say your out, your out and cover it with the insurance.

The ammount of case I've heard of on this board alone where HMRC have to pack in without enough evidence or bodged it! as all government departments do. chill out a bit you will give yourself a ulsa.

I know I know it’s just if I had to declare myself inside it just isn't worth it, take out the extra tax, holiday, sickness, bench time and I might as well take a permie job on half the money and be no worse off!

If I join PCG insurance now should I pay for it personally or from my Ltd? I'm new to running a Ltd and don't have the business account set up yet.

[kirk]

I know I know it’s just if I had to declare myself inside it just isn't worth it, take out the extra tax, holiday, sickness, bench time and I might as well take a permie job on half the money and be no worse off!

If I join PCG insurance now should I pay for it personally or from my Ltd? I'm new to running a Ltd and don't have the business account set up yet.

either; you can pay it personally and claim it back or straight from the business account.

[Bluebird]

either; you can pay it personally and claim it back or straight from the business account.

does it cover you retrospectivley ?

[Robwg]

How many on here do some kind of support work be it 1st 2nd or 3rd line and are working on the assumption that you are outside of IR35 and how do you justify it?

I am currently in one of these contracts - and it is fairly straight forward. If asked to defend myself in an IR35 case - my main points would be

1) Been recruited to deliver support etc. (as plenty of other consultancies do - e.g. Cap Gemini, Accenture, EDS all offer this 'service').

2) I don't do anything outside of my agreed mandate (e.g. - have been asked to 'train' juniors and point blank refused). I basically just answer support calls and work on changes etc.

3) My company offers something they can't get through Permanent employees (in my case I am more skilled than any of the permies and can justifibly say I am being recruited for my skills). Admittedly this does make substitution clause difficult - so I haven't bothered with one of those.

4) I act like I am not an employee basically - don't take part in anything employee related at all (team photos - that sort of thing).

5) I only do my contracted hours unless absolute emergency. When office is closed or if network is down or whatever don't come in and don't expect to get paid (thus meeting MOO requirements for outside of IR35).

6) I have now got dial in access - so when the work lets me (which isn't very often as I have to work with the team and I find this praticaly face to face) I work from home. On times when I have had 'chunks' of work to do have arranged my work to do it at home.

I am sure you get the gist?

I think basically if I was subjected to an investigation I would argue (as well as the above) that plenty of bigger firms offer outsourcing services - so why should smaller one man firms. I agree it could be seen as dodgy as support contracts are by their nature not the type where you have a chunk of work you are delivering - but you'll win any argument as long as you remember you are not an employee and don't act like one, and that your 'deliverable' is to provide support - not a project etc.

Oh and get your contract reviewed obviously - and the PCG insurance.

You'll be alright - just remember you are a firm and not an employee and treat the relationship between you and your client like that. I think any contractor who has that in their mind day to day is going to win more or less any IR35 case (rightly so).

(and like you - I was umbrella for the first 2 years - and totally regret not moving to ltd sooner).

[mictech]

Some of the insurance companies will look at your old contracts and cover them for a fee of course. But not sure if that would be classed as BIK as its not for your current company, that may have to come from pernnel funds.

[gingerjedi]

I am currently in one of these contracts - and it is fairly straight forward. If asked to defend myself in an IR35 case - my main points would be

1) Been recruited to deliver support etc. (as plenty of other consultancies do - e.g. Cap Gemini, Accenture, EDS all offer this 'service').

2) I don't do anything outside of my agreed mandate (e.g. - have been asked to 'train' juniors and point blank refused). I basically just answer support calls and work on changes etc.

3) My company offers something they can't get through Permanent employees (in my case I am more skilled than any of the permies and can justifibly say I am being recruited for my skills). Admittedly this does make substitution clause difficult - so I haven't bothered with one of those.

4) I act like I am not an employee basically - don't take part in anything employee related at all (team photos - that sort of thing).

5) I only do my contracted hours unless absolute emergency. When office is closed or if network is down or whatever don't come in and don't expect to get paid (thus meeting MOO requirements for outside of IR35).

6) I have now got dial in access - so when the work lets me (which isn't very often as I have to work with the team and I find this praticaly face to face) I work from home. On times when I have had 'chunks' of work to do have arranged my work to do it at home.

I am sure you get the gist?

I think basically if I was subjected to an investigation I would argue (as well as the above) that plenty of bigger firms offer outsourcing services - so why should smaller one man firms. I agree it could be seen as dodgy as support contracts are by their nature not the type where you have a chunk of work you are delivering - but you'll win any argument as long as you remember you are not an employee and don't act like one, and that your 'deliverable' is to provide support - not a project etc.

Oh and get your contract reviewed obviously - and the PCG insurance.

You'll be alright - just remember you are a firm and not an employee and treat the relationship between you and your client like that. I think any contractor who has that in their mind day to day is going to win more or less any IR35 case (rightly so).

(and like you - I was umbrella for the first 2 years - and totally regret not moving to ltd sooner).

Thanks for the advice, its just that so many people are so unperturbed about IR35 and don't worry about it at all, I guess these are the ones who will come unstuck should they be investigated, I plan to get PCG insurance and get my contract checked out ASAP.

I also like your point about EDS, Accenture etc offering these services so why shouldn't you.

[Bluebird]

Thanks for the advice, its just that so many people are so unperturbed about IR35 and don't worry about it at all, I guess these are the ones who will come unstuck should they be investigated, I plan to get PCG insurance and get my contract checked out ASAP.

I also like your point about EDS, Accenture etc offering these services so why shouldn't you.

I think the difference being that the consultancies mentioned are not one man ltd companies, and the directors are not themselves carrying out the work.

[Robwg]

I think the difference being that the consultancies mentioned are not one man ltd companies, and the directors are not themselves carrying out the work.

An obvious point - you could say that about virtually every contractor though - there are always bigger firms that offer the same services as the smaller ones - but they charge the client even more (I would be charged out at double my daily rate if I still worked at Cap).

Personally - I think eventually IR35 (or its successors) will be taken to the European courts and blown out of the water.

Thanks for the advice, its just that so many people are so unperturbed about IR35 and don't worry about it at all, I guess these are the ones who will come unstuck should they be investigated, I plan to get PCG insurance and get my contract checked out ASAP.

I also like your point about EDS, Accenture etc offering these services so why shouldn't you.

Just remember you are a limited and not a temp - and you will be alright.

Also - get the business paraphenalia - website, domain email address, business cards, advertise - that sort of thing. A small investment which all points in your favour (and may actually bring in business).