IR35 Update following discussion group yesterday - survey request

[northernladuk]

[QUOTE=WordIsBond;2146605]They want suggestions? I ranted at length in the "anything else you want to say" box.

Yes, employees don't pay VAT. Employees don't put up websites advertising their services, and you don't have to spend £1000 on advertising to be acting like a business. Employees don't go on the bench for three weeks. They don't buy PI insurance. They don't pay an accountant to file their business accounts. They don't have their contracts reviewed by both a lawyer and an IR35 specialist.[quote]

Nor do a vast number of contractors, including 'proper contractors' to be fair.

[MrMarkyMark]

Yes, employees don't pay VAT. Employees don't put up websites advertising their services, and you don't have to spend £1000 on advertising to be acting like a business. Employees don't go on the bench for three weeks. They don't buy PI insurance. They don't pay an accountant to file their business accounts. They don't have their contracts reviewed by both a lawyer and an IR35 specialist.

And employees get benefits, we all know what they are.

What make me "laugh" is if you are considered to be an employee, we owe all this tax NI etc. However, we are expected to lose out on all employee benefits too.

[VectraMan]

Employees don't pay VAT? Employees pay lots of VAT on everything they spend. Contractors can reclaim VAT on travel to work, which employees can't, so if anything it's contractors that don't pay VAT and employees do. Weird to drag VAT into the argument as for most contractors (on the FRS) being VAT registered is just free money.

There's still this idea that there might be an alternative to IR35 that allows everyone to continue to pay less tax than the equivalent permie. That's not very realistic.

[pr1]

And employees get benefits, we all know what they are.

What make me "laugh" is if you are considered to be an employee, we owe all this tax NI etc. However, we are expected to lose out on all employee benefits too.

[devils advocate]
if you look at the things that NI "pays for" (yes I know it's a blurred line between NI and tax)

- contractors can claim JSA
- contractors turning over 100k+ can still claim child benefit if they only pay themselves 42k
- contractors get the same maternity pay as employees, less the first 6 weeks
- contractors who pay themselves over 8k get the same NI "tick in the box" towards their state pension
- statutory sick pay is no longer paid for by the government (so NI doesn't pay for it)
- we're entitled to other things such as the NHS, same as permies

there's not much contractors are missing out on that justifies them not paying the same NI as permies (at least the employee portion)
[/da]

[MrMarkyMark]

[devils advocate]
if you look at the things that NI "pays for" (yes I know it's a blurred line between NI and tax)

- contractors can claim JSA
- contractors turning over 100k+ can still claim child benefit if they only pay themselves 42k
- contractors get the same maternity pay as employees, less the first 6 weeks
- contractors who pay themselves over 8k get the same NI "tick in the box" towards their state pension
- statutory sick pay is no longer paid for by the government (so NI doesn't pay for it)
- we're entitled to other things such as the NHS, same as permies

there's not much contractors are missing out on that justifies them not paying the same NI as permies (at least the employee portion)
[/da]

Spectacularly missed the point, I'm afraid.
I was talking about benefits an employee gets from their employer.

Bonus, paid holiday, pension etc. etc.

Nothing to do with NI.

[pr1]

Spectacularly missed the point, I'm afraid.
I was talking about benefits an employee gets from their employer.

Bonus, paid holiday, pension etc. etc.

Nothing to do with NI.

for that, you're probably getting gross paid double (or more) the salary of the equivalent permie - it doesn't justify why you shouldn't be paying the same NI

[MrMarkyMark]

for that, you're probably getting gross paid double (or more) the salary of the equivalent permie - it doesn't justify why you shouldn't be paying the same NI

Again you missed the point .

If you were found inside IR35, you would have to pay everything as per a PAYE employee, NI, 45% tax etc.
However, you would not recieve benefits as per an employee.

I don't understand why you find it so difficult to grasp this fact.

[LondonManc]

for that, you're probably getting gross paid double (or more) the salary of the equivalent permie - it doesn't justify why you shouldn't be paying the same NI

So if have to pay the same tax and NI as a permanent employee, why don't you get all the protection and benefits that they get but you get the extra costs associated with being a business?

Completely missing the point as usual.

[northernladuk]

Again you missed the point .

If you were found inside IR35, you would have to pay everything as per a PAYE employee, NI, 45% tax etc.
However, you would not recieve benefits as per an employee.

I don't understand why you find it so difficult to grasp this fact.

Seems to be a common theme with this one.....

[pr1]

Again you missed the point .

If you were found inside IR35, you would have to pay everything as per a PAYE employee, NI, 45% tax etc.
However, you would not recieve benefits as per an employee.

I don't understand why you find it so difficult to grasp this fact.

yes, and you'd also pay employers NI (another 13.8%)

my point is, there aren't many benefits (paid for by tax and NI) that you are missing out on (which would justify paying less tax/NI)