Bauer & Cottrell contract review - suggests I will never be outside IR35?!

[zippy.mini]

I just paid B&C for a their contractor guardian plus service and have had a call back regarding my current contract and they tell me that I am inside IR35. Whilst this is bad news, I am more perplexed about what was said because it seems that in my line of work, I can never be outside.

Being an infrastructure engineer, I am usually brought in to help with projects that require extra resource over and above the permanent work force for a temporary period, duration of project etc. Usually I have the same or similar skills to the permies, sometimes I have more, but generally the same. I am being told now that this automatically puts me inside ir35 because I do essentially the same job as the permies, report to the same manager and although I have more control than they do over where and when I do the work, the fact that I do the same as them means I am classed as a "temporary worker" not a contractor in business on my own account.
She did say that if I am solely working on the project and not doing BAU type work as well, then that might change things a bit, but I thought from my research a few years ago that being in a support role didn't necessarily make you inside whereas now I'm being told pretty much that it does.

So... Is this the same as your understanding? Is there any way that I can do anything to change things to put me outside? They are saying there's no point negotiating with my agency re the contract at the moment because she is pretty sure I'm inside

[AntonioDJCA]

After being on Bauer & Cotterell's website, I note that they have stated they would "discuss and negotiate appropriate changes on your behalf directly with your agency/end client" (on their higher package), which suggests that they should be able to provide you with information on what, in their opinion, puts you inside IR35 and then make recommendations based on that.
Not ideal (looking at the prices they charge), however looking for a second opinion on your circumstance and contract may be a good idea.

[AJ1982]

In a similar situation myself, would be interesting to see any feedback other members have.

[northernladuk]

Am wondering if this is more an arse covering comment. Because the rules are so ambiguous and open to interpretation it's contents impossible to be 100% guaranteed outside. You can hawoever meet someone the three main flags to be outside and not have too many flags to be inside and be as confident as possible. Does that make sense?

Normally the explain why you are inside in detail. Because of the type of work you do is not an acceptable answer from a paid review. They shouldn't have taken your money if that was the case.

IMO go back to them and ask to explain in detail. They are professional set up so am sure they wont fob you off.

[zippy.mini]

After being on Bauer & Cotterell's website, I note that they have stated they would "discuss and negotiate appropriate changes on your behalf directly with your agency/end client" (on their higher package), which suggests that they should be able to provide you with information on what, in their opinion, puts you inside IR35 and then make recommendations based on that.
Not ideal (looking at the prices they charge), however looking for a second opinion on your circumstance and contract may be a good idea.

They will negotiate if the contract needs it, but they say my working practices as I've described them, put me bang inside so there's no point.
I have said that I am there to bolster the workforce whilst they have a project on that needs extra resource. This puts me inside because I am doing the same job as the rest of the team. The nature of my type of work almost always puts me in this boat but I was under the impression that if I had control over what hours I do and where etc, and that it's definitely only a temporary role for a set amount of time, this would be enough to put me outside... Apparently not.
At the moment I can't see a way that any contractor doing a BAU type role, supporting/implementing systems and working alongside permie staff, can be outside. And that is contrary to what I understood from a few years ago.
And I suspect is contrary to what a lot of fellow contractors think too as I don't know anyone who works inside...
So I'm wondering if this is everyone's take on this or just B&C being overly cautious so they don't lose their "we've never lost a case" strap line....

[AntonioDJCA]

They will negotiate if the contract needs it, but they say my working practices as I've described them, put me bang inside so there's no point.
I have said that I am there to bolster the workforce whilst they have a project on that needs extra resource. This puts me inside because I am doing the same job as the rest of the team. The nature of my type of work almost always puts me in this boat but I was under the impression that if I had control over what hours I do and where etc, and that it's definitely only a temporary role for a set amount of time, this would be enough to put me outside... Apparently not.
At the moment I can't see a way that any contractor doing a BAU type role, supporting/implementing systems and working alongside permie staff, can be outside. And that is contrary to what I understood from a few years ago.
And I suspect is contrary to what a lot of fellow contractors think too as I don't know anyone who works inside...
So I'm wondering if this is everyone's take on this or just B&C being overly cautious so they don't lose their "we've never lost a case" strap line....

The truth is, as northenladUK has said, that IR35 is open to interpretation. I am not fully aware of what your working practices are, however you doing the same type of work as what a permanent employee would do does not automatically mean you are caught by IR35 (I stress that this is my own opinion on IR35, as stated earlier, this is open to interpretation). If you have control over the delivery work (genuine control), and your contract states it, the type/nature of work should not affect your status. Maybe you can ask why B&C deem that your activities are caught (in writing if possible) as "you do the same work as employees" over the phone does not sound good enough for the amount they are charging (in my opinion).

[Kate Cottrell]

I just paid B&C for a their contractor guardian plus service and have had a call back regarding my current contract and they tell me that I am inside IR35. Whilst this is bad news, I am more perplexed about what was said because it seems that in my line of work, I can never be outside.

Being an infrastructure engineer, I am usually brought in to help with projects that require extra resource over and above the permanent work force for a temporary period, duration of project etc. Usually I have the same or similar skills to the permies, sometimes I have more, but generally the same. I am being told now that this automatically puts me inside ir35 because I do essentially the same job as the permies, report to the same manager and although I have more control than they do over where and when I do the work, the fact that I do the same as them means I am classed as a "temporary worker" not a contractor in business on my own account.
She did say that if I am solely working on the project and not doing BAU type work as well, then that might change things a bit, but I thought from my research a few years ago that being in a support role didn't necessarily make you inside whereas now I'm being told pretty much that it does.

So... Is this the same as your understanding? Is there any way that I can do anything to change things to put me outside? They are saying there's no point negotiating with my agency re the contract at the moment because she is pretty sure I'm inside

Hello zippy mini

Having seen my company name and your comments I thought I would look into this. Your papers show that your contract review is not yet finished and we are waiting to hear back from you since the telephone conversation that took place this afternoon. It would be really helpful if you can call please once you have clarified the points with your Line Manager that we discussed with you.

Kate Cottrell
Bauer & Cottrell

[northernladuk]

Hello zippy mini

Having seen my company name and your comments I thought I would look into this. Your papers show that your contract review is not yet finished and we are waiting to hear back from you since the telephone conversation that took place this afternoon. It would be really helpful if you can call please once you have clarified the points with your Line Manager that we discussed with you.

Kate Cottrell
Bauer & Cottrell

Now THAT is what I call customer service LOL.

If he does get comments from his 'Line Manager' do you instantly fail him as a disguised permie???

[zippy.mini]

Am wondering if this is more an arse covering comment. Because the rules are so ambiguous and open to interpretation it's contents impossible to be 100% guaranteed outside. You can hawoever meet someone the three main flags to be outside and not have too many flags to be inside and be as confident as possible. Does that make sense?

Normally the explain why you are inside in detail. Because of the type of work you do is not an acceptable answer from a paid review. They shouldn't have taken your money if that was the case.

IMO go back to them and ask to explain in detail. They are professional set up so am sure they wont fob you off.

No, your first paragraph doesn't make sense 😉

They have explained on the phone. Here are the reasons:
- I am doing the same job as permies in the same team
- I report to the same manager
- I bring no specific specialist skills over their current staff
- I am there to bolster their team whilst they have a big project on

The latter I expected to work to my benefit in this case as I have a definite end date for this contract.
I have made it clear to the manager that I won't be subject to the same controls as he has over his permie staff regarding hours - he tried to make me do 8.5 hours on site, even though I'm contracted for 7.5 only. He said I have to take 1 hour lunch. I've said no way. I will work my 7.5 hours or 37.5 hours in a week as I deem fit. He's agreed, as long as it doesn't affect the work. I also have agreed that I can choose what site and sometimes work from home with the permies can't do unless they have medical leave...
I thought this was more important than the above points but I am told not. They said that hmrc would class me as a temporary agency worker based on those points and therefore should pay paye.
Whilst it's not so good to do that, I would still do it if the agency would treat me as a temporary worker and pay me directly, having paid my tax for me like they do agency workers... But they won't! I have to go through an umbrella and pay employers nics twice! Making me worse off than an agency employee!
👿

[zippy.mini]

Hello zippy mini

Having seen my company name and your comments I thought I would look into this. Your papers show that your contract review is not yet finished and we are waiting to hear back from you since the telephone conversation that took place this afternoon. It would be really helpful if you can call please once you have clarified the points with your Line Manager that we discussed with you.

Kate Cottrell
Bauer & Cottrell

Hi Kate

Thanks for your reply I hope you don't feel like I have been dissing your company, cos I haven't! I just didn't like what I was told today and it raised a lot of questions.
I will speak to the line manager and get back as promised, but the way the conversation went with your representative, she didn't fill me with much hope that I can change her mind on this even if I get some clarification.

As per my comments above, I was previously under the impression that doing the same BAU type job as permie staff in a team wouldn't necessarily put you inside but today I'm told that it does... the only thing that I was told that may help is if I can get the line manager to say that I am solely working on a project, which doesn't help with the BAU situation for other jobs that I may get in my line of work....

Any clarification on this would be appreciated!
Thanks