"Consultation" on Employment Intermediaries and Tax Relief for Travel and Subsistence

[unixman]

That would be slightly funny if there was a PCG... which there ain't.

Yes I know. That was part of the joke.

[BolshieBastard]

Well I didnt vote for the twats but that's little consolation.

I think people who think this new T&S, DC&S may not come in are severely deluded. As for IPSE being able to do anything about it, didnt those ******* land us with the AWR's and tell everyone how they'd engaged the tories and that IR35's days were numbered? Dont hold your breath.

So, according to the draft, anyone under the DC&S of the client will not be able to claim travle and subsistance.. It will be interesting to see the definition of 'supervision' since D&C has been reasonably well defined due to years of IR35.

As I read it we will have two sets of tests to satisfy, one, IR35. If you are deemed outside, you will need to 'pass' the 'supervision' test to be able to claim T&S.

However, let's say you declare yourself in IR35, you are allowed 5% expenses. Presumably, this 5% can cover any expense so, could you effectively claim your T&S under this or would you still have to pass the 'supervision' test first?

Or are they proposing if you're IR35 caught, you can still claim T&S upto the 5% limit without further ado?

Anyone like to theorise?

[mudskipper]

Well I didnt vote for the twats but that's little consolation.

I think people who think this new T&S, DC&S may not come in are severely deluded. As for IPSE being able to do anything about it, didnt those ******* land us with the AWR's and tell everyone how they'd engaged the tories and that IR35's days were numbered? Dont hold your breath.

So, according to the draft, anyone under the DC&S of the client will not be able to claim travle and subsistance.. It will be interesting to see the definition of 'supervision' since D&C has been reasonably well defined due to years of IR35.

As I read it we will have two sets of tests to satisfy, one, IR35. If you are deemed outside, you will need to 'pass' the 'supervision' test to be able to claim T&S.

However, let's say you declare yourself in IR35, you are allowed 5% expenses. Presumably, this 5% can cover any expense so, could you effectively claim your T&S under this or would you still have to pass the 'supervision' test first?

Or are they proposing if you're IR35 caught, you can still claim T&S upto the 5% limit without further ado?

Anyone like to theorise?

PCG may not have got rid of IR35, but by going through the courts have successfully got us to a position where anyone who is paying attention is fairly clear on what they need to do to be able to challenge an investigation. From my point of view it's better the devil you know - it's not going to be got rid of, without being replaced by something more punitive (of which this may be a starting point). The promised clarification is unlikely to be helpful IMO.

Definitions from the doc:

p14

HMRC consider the definition of the terms supervision, direction and control as
follows:
- Supervision is someone overseeing a person doing work, to ensure that
person is doing the work they are required to do and it is being done correctly
to the required standard. Supervision can also involve helping the person
where appropriate in order to develop their skills and knowledge.
- Direction is someone making a person do his/her work in a certain way by
proving them with instructions, guidance, or advice as to how the work must be
done. Someone providing direction will often co-ordinate how the work is done,
as it is being undertaken.
- Control is someone dictating what work a person does and how they go about
doing that work. Control also includes someone having the power to move the
person from one job to another

My understanding is that the 5% is for admin costs, and does not include travel and subsistence which is in addition.

[BolshieBastard]

p14

HMRC consider the definition of the terms supervision, direction and control as
follows:
- Supervision is someone overseeing a person doing work, to ensure that
person is doing the work they are required to do and it is being done correctly
to the required standard. Supervision can also involve helping the person
where appropriate in order to develop their skills and knowledge.
- Direction is someone making a person do his/her work in a certain way by
proving them with instructions, guidance, or advice as to how the work must be
done. Someone providing direction will often co-ordinate how the work is done,
as it is being undertaken.
- Control is someone dictating what work a person does and how they go about
doing that work. Control also includes someone having the power to move the
person from one job to another

So any peer review of code, build, test results or mentoring of someone could be classed as 'supervision.'

[eek]

So any peer review of code, build, test results or mentoring of someone could be classed as 'supervision.'

I was ignoring the peer review and thinking that testing of code by someone else could be enough..

The word supervision cannot be the only test required... If it is the only people not subject to it would be a Chief Executive, the prime minister and the chancellor of the exchequer..

[BolshieBastard]

I was ignoring the peer review and thinking that testing of code by someone else could be enough..

The word supervision cannot be the only test required... If it is the only people not subject to it would be a Chief Executive, the prime minister and the chancellor of the exchequer..

Isnt the proposed wording that someone subject to direction, control OR supervision cannot claim T&S? That suggests supervision on its own could determine the ability to claim.

[eek]

Isnt the proposed wording that someone subject to direction, control OR supervision cannot claim T&S? That suggests supervision on its own could determine the ability to claim.

Yep....

Its also serious scope creep and snuck into this document. No mention of supervision is in the previous discussion document see https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...e_expenses.pdf

[centurian]

Oh, that's a sneaky, last minute change.

Still don't think that LtdCo contractors are the primary target of this, but I think they are now within the field of spread of HMRCs shotgun

[eek]

Oh, that's a sneaky, last minute change.

Still don't think that LtdCo contractors are the primary target of this, but I think they are now within the field of spread of HMRCs shotgun

As I have continually said none of the things being done (bar the dividend tax and employer in allowance change) are supposed to impact us. We are just collateral damage as the government remove a large number of tax dodges being forced on others.

As I said last year when ipse changed its name, a large proportion of the poorly paid people that suddenly became within their new remit would have been better off joining the GMB Union and ipse would be better off if it sought a relationship with such a union and used the combined size to argue for a sanity driven joint approach (supporting those who want to be self employed, while find means to stop others from being forced into fake self-employment).

[TestMangler]

Isnt the proposed wording that someone subject to direction, control OR supervision cannot claim T&S? That suggests supervision on its own could determine the ability to claim.

And supervision could mean almost anything. The examples Eek gave of the prime minister and Chief Exec are invalid as they are not 'a business in their own right'. Are you a PM ? Do you attend a programme board to update a Programme Manager on your projects' progress ? Are you a test manager and have to update a Prg test manager on your progress ? Do you build desktops and have to tell someone when the latest batch is ready ? Can any of these people you report to make any changes of any type to what you are going to do next ? That is supervision, that is. Or at least, it will be when this consultation is complete.

Anyone who thinks that contractors are not a target is deluded.