End of the road

[WordIsBond]

Precisely. Trying to boil the frog too quickly. We just need a few people in high places to cotton on what this means for businesses bottom line and this will fold.

Businesses have to engage consultancies instead of contractors. Their bottom line is hit hard. Consultancies do well. PI firms go bust. Mass layoffs of permies. Greater unemployment. Bad news for call me Dave.

Just think it through. This cannot and will not go through as is, or the tulip will hit the fan.

You would be 100% correct if it were not that you are relying heavily on an assumption which remains unproven.

That assumption is that there is anyone "in high places" intelligent enough to be able to "cotton on" to what this means. I would have thought there were plenty such before that budget, but now, one can't be so sure.

Where are the people in government, or even backbench Tory MPs, who are saying, "Wait a minute! What kind of stupidity is this?"

[suityou01]

You would be 100% correct if it were not that you are relying heavily on an assumption which remains unproven.

That assumption is that there is anyone "in high places" intelligent enough to be able to "cotton on" to what this means. I would have thought there were plenty such before that budget, but now, one can't be so sure.

Where are the people in government, or even backbench Tory MPs, who are saying, "Wait a minute! What kind of stupidity is this?"

They're there. There just sitting back and waiting for someone lower down to cotton on so they don't have to get their hands dirty. If it comes to it, they will.

[jamesbrown]

They're there. There just sitting back and waiting for someone lower down to cotton on so they don't have to get their hands dirty. If it comes to it, they will.

Seriously, I admire your optimism, but this is a coordinated effort through a number of vehicles (onshore and offshore intermediaries, agency reporting, dividend taxation, T&S consultation and IR35 discussion etc., and you can probably wave goodbye to the VAT FRS and ER soon). This doesn't simply originate from a couple of low-level grunts in HMRC, it's a coordinated attack from HMG on multiple fronts. To a large degree, the writing was on the wall following the pre-election promises to avoid any increases in general taxation, coupled with the negative press surrounding off-payroll arrangements and avoidance. Defining us (PSCs) and conflating us with tax avoidance can be seen as laying the groundwork.

[suityou01]

Seriously, I admire your optimism, but this is a coordinated effort through a number of vehicles (onshore and offshore intermediaries, agency reporting, dividend taxation, T&S consultation and IR35 discussion etc., and you can probably wave goodbye to the VAT FRS and ER soon). This doesn't simply originate from a couple of low-level grunts in HMRC, it's a coordinated attack from HMG on multiple fronts. To a large degree, the writing was on the wall following the pre-election promises to avoid any increases in general taxation, coupled with the negative press surrounding off-payroll arrangements and avoidance. Defining us (PSCs) and conflating us with tax avoidance can be seen as laying the groundwork.

If it's such a coordinated effort, how come the consultation document is a pile of tulipe?

Does rather look like some junior wrote it I'm afraid.

[jamesbrown]

If it's such a coordinated effort, how come the consultation document is a pile of tulipe?

Does rather look like some junior wrote it I'm afraid.

Because HMRC consultation documents always look like a pile of tulip. More specifically, since when has HMRC guidance borne any relation to case law or logic for that matter? They always present edge cases to support their argument (as perceived), rather than providing a balanced view.

[mudskipper]

Seriously, I admire your optimism, but this is a coordinated effort through a number of vehicles (onshore and offshore intermediaries, agency reporting, dividend taxation, T&S consultation and IR35 discussion etc., and you can probably wave goodbye to the VAT FRS and ER soon). This doesn't simply originate from a couple of low-level grunts in HMRC, it's a coordinated attack from HMG on multiple fronts. To a large degree, the writing was on the wall following the pre-election promises to avoid any increases in general taxation, coupled with the negative press surrounding off-payroll arrangements and avoidance. Defining us (PSCs) and conflating us with tax avoidance can be seen as laying the groundwork.

WHS

From the T&S consultation (p6)

"These proposals are part of a strategic approach to clarify the differences between
employment and self-employment, and the use of employment intermediaries. This
will ensure those who are in an employment relationship are taxed as employees, on a
fair and consistent basis."

I think that presents a reasonable argument that preempting the outcome of the IR35 discussion by implementing SDC for T&S is premature, but unfortunately, looking at the dismissal of the concerns that were raised at discussion stage, it doesn't look like reasonable arguments are given reasonable consideration.

[jamesbrown]

I think that present a reasonable argument that preempting the outcome of the IR35 discussion by implementing SDC for T&S is premature, but unfortunately, looking at the dismissal of the concerns that were raised at discussion stage, it doesn't look like reasonable arguments are given reasonable consideration.

Precisely, which is why the T&S response is so important (if a little futile) as a precursor to the IR35 discussion. Once the T&S is implemented, it's really quite difficult to see them backing away from precisely the suggestions made in the IR35 discussion, possibly with some added bells and whistles. That said, we need to put this aside for now as a distraction, develop and evidence the case against, and hope that reason has not entirely exited stage left.

[mudskipper]

P14:

Personal Services

The intention is that the worker must personally provide their services to another person (the engager) or be obliged to do so.

Any thoughts on how this fits with RoS?