Reply to: BA - Doom

[MrMarkyMark]

Guys, correct, on both counts.

One is cultural the second to do with caste.
The boss normally gets treated as a god by his subordinates that follow him without question.

Completely the opposite to what you want in IT work, really

[BrilloPad]

I've found culture to be the biggest issue. So lack of taking responsibility and owning up to problems. Also, there is often a rush to do something fast and not necessarily in the best way, whatever gets praise the fastest.

They also tend to follow whatever they are told to do without question.

[woohoo]

Unfortunately true in a lot of cases. Recently I have been depressed by the amount of dross on the UK contractor market.
However, I stand by the fact that offshore are far more difficult to manage, day to day.

Having spent a lot of time in India, since I went in the mid 70's, the cultural difference is the main problem, IMO. Caste plays a major role too.

I've found culture to be the biggest issue. So lack of taking responsibility and owning up to problems. Also, there is often a rush to do something fast and not necessarily in the best way, whatever gets praise the fastest.

[Lola C]

Hello unemployment and housing shortage .... This is how one creates them.

[MrMarkyMark]

Honestly, I don't think it's a case of offshore / onshore. I constantly work with contractors who invent reasons to use new technologies or want to bang on everything with the same hammer.

It's hard to find good people who deliver elegant solutions. Once you find them, you should pay to keep them.

Unfortunately true in a lot of cases. Recently I have been depressed by the amount of dross on the UK contractor market.
However, I stand by the fact that offshore are far more difficult to manage, day to day.

Having spent a lot of time in India, since I went in the mid 70's, the cultural difference is the main problem, IMO. Caste plays a major role too.

[fool]

I think this attitude is prevalant in most areas.
Obviously, when working technically there can be a number of solutions that should be assessed and the right choice implemented.
Offshore workers will generally apply, or try to apply, the 1st solution that comes to mind. This poorly thought out solution will often cause issues later on.

I have managed plenty of offshore guys, the best way was to go through step, by step, on the phone, then follow up with a step by step mail.
The client has to accept that this will take at least half your working day.
Often, it would have been quicker to do it all yourself, in the first instance.

Honestly, I don't think it's a case of offshore / onshore. I constantly work with contractors who invent reasons to use new technologies or want to bang on everything with the same hammer.

It's hard to find good people who deliver elegant solutions. Once you find them, you should pay to keep them.

[MrMarkyMark]

The problem with a lot of offshore support - is they lack the skill to diagnose problems and think on their feet. Not all of them, but it's drummed into a large section of the support culture - follow the steps - don't deviate - don't think - just do.

I think this attitude is prevalant in most areas.
Obviously, when working technically there can be a number of solutions that should be assessed and the right choice implemented.
Offshore workers will generally apply, or try to apply, the 1st solution that comes to mind. This poorly thought out solution will often cause issues later on.

I have managed plenty of offshore guys, the best way was to go through step, by step, on the phone, then follow up with a step by step mail.
The client has to accept that this will take at least half your working day.
Often, it would have been quicker to do it all yourself, in the first instance.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Not sure whether we ever got to the bottom of what happened there.

But even if that bit was offshored, I suspect it wasn't a case of pressing the wrong button. They probably pressed the right button, but the button didn't work properly - and the instruction manual didn't have steps to follow if the button didn't work correctly.

The problem with a lot of offshore support - is they lack the skill to diagnose problems and think on their feet. Not all of them, but it's drummed into a large section of the support culture - follow the steps - don't deviate - don't think - just do.

Think you're absolutely right - cost cutting by offshoring is all very well when everything works but if there is a cock up and they have to call in the professionals (you lot) it ends up damaging business relationships and probably costing more in the long run

[centurian]

Didn't Natwest try that and ended up with someone pressing the wrong button and crashing their systems for a couple of days

Not sure whether we ever got to the bottom of what happened there.

But even if that bit was offshored, I suspect it wasn't a case of pressing the wrong button. They probably pressed the right button, but the button didn't work properly - and the instruction manual didn't have steps to follow if the button didn't work correctly.

The problem with a lot of offshore support - is they lack the skill to diagnose problems and think on their feet. Not all of them, but it's drummed into a large section of the support culture - follow the steps - don't deviate - don't think - just do.

[MrMarkyMark]

The thing is even if we think offshoring / near shoring does not always work, it is part and parcel of what we do.

Current client co works on a 3:1 ratio when comparing outputs of their current offshore arrangements vs. London.
Whether its Chennai or Poland, I have to be involved to try and set up a robust process with, regards to, regulatory reporting delivery.
This covers many platforms and technologies, in the chain, as well as a user application layer.

My focussed area is pretty much done. Another area is not so advanced, hence why the number of incidents raised against it is unbelievably higher.

I will be leaving all this behind, now it is all in place and running well.

Client Co have already said they would like to use me again

[NickNick]

Dunno where you have been hiding for the last 10 years or so. This is standard in most large clients. Many of the big boys have many hundreds of ICTs. 55? Pffffff that's nothing.

I think I can probably see 55 TCS guys in this office, let alone all the other client site across the country.

[dynamicsaxcontractor]

All part of the gamble. In finance and publishing Ive been working with offshore devs for a decade. PMs spend half of their time managing gross incompetence, lies and sickness. Projects are delayed by 100% I would estimate. Headline cost is what matters in the short term, until you see how it impacts the overall cost of delivery, then the insourcing cycle begins again, or it has in the past. I do feel like its likely to be staying overseas now, as I walk around the office I see every other screen on a videoconf to Mumbai or Chennai. I've taken to almost never going on site now, and nobody seems to mind as long as I deliver. I don't feel it bodes well for the UK IT industry as a whole.

How is it in other countries such as NZ and Australia? Maybe time to make a move soon?

[LondonManc]

Even if you change the rules to stop IT staff coming over on temporary visas, they'll simply work remotely in India.

All our contractors are offshored, they don't need temporary visas, you can easily communicate and video conferencing is just as good as face to face.

Remote offshoring is the latest and greatest trend.

I'd disagree with that personally.

Remote offshoring? As opposed to the on-site offshoring?

[56samba]

Didn't Natwest try that and ended up with someone pressing the wrong button and crashing their systems for a couple of days

All part of the gamble. In finance and publishing Ive been working with offshore devs for a decade. PMs spend half of their time managing gross incompetence, lies and sickness. Projects are delayed by 100% I would estimate. Headline cost is what matters in the short term, until you see how it impacts the overall cost of delivery, then the insourcing cycle begins again, or it has in the past. I do feel like its likely to be staying overseas now, as I walk around the office I see every other screen on a videoconf to Mumbai or Chennai. I've taken to almost never going on site now, and nobody seems to mind as long as I deliver. I don't feel it bodes well for the UK IT industry as a whole.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Even if you change the rules to stop IT staff coming over on temporary visas, they'll simply work remotely in India.

All our contractors are offshored, they don't need temporary visas, you can easily communicate and video conferencing is just as good as face to face.

Remote offshoring is the latest and greatest trend.

Didn't Natwest try that and ended up with someone pressing the wrong button and crashing their systems for a couple of days