Reply to: Loan Charge - a beginners guide

[webberg]

Hi Webberg, is this Big Group? Or is there a separate group for the settled people who want to attack the legal side of the loan?

For the moment we are hosting this in Big Group.

I suspect however that for a number of statutory and legal and practical reasons, we may soon create

BIG GROUP (LEGAL)

which will be looked after by our new Legal entity and which will be a platform for action.

Watch this space.

[here4beer]

Are there protections? Yes but you have to use the documents you signed and contest the terms being applied and perhaps roll in a bit of trust law to help you.

Can you do this on your own? Yes, but let's be honest it's easier and cheaper as a group.

Can we (WTT) do this? No, we're not lawyers but we do have a solid and committed and growing daily group and good connections with law firms in the IOM and other places who will, for a fee, take this on.

Are there any guarantees that the loans will not be repayable? No. We think a Court may struggle for some of the reasons you mention (and some others) to find against you, but it's litigation and therefore uncertain.

Will writing the loan off be taxable? Yes.

Will I pay tax on the write off and also the loan charge? No.

Will I pay tax on the wrote off and the earlier years once the dust has settled? Probably not.

What here is certain and what is opinion? Nothing and most of it.

None of our clients will be taking the THL offer. Whether you chose to or not, I cannot help you with.

Hi Webberg, is this Big Group? Or is there a separate group for the settled people who want to attack the legal side of the loan?

[webberg]

I do not think taking THL's option will avoid the LC , HMRC are quite clear that you have to repay the full amount in cash to avoid the charge, a write of of the loan will not suffice.

My view here is that you are correct that a repayment of the loan in money will avoid the loan charge.

Also an agreement to pay tax on the years the loans were drawn, made before 5th April 2019, will also avoid the charge.

(An agreement signed in the 19/20 tax year exempting a tax on an event that happens on one day only in the 18/19 tax year - not so certain. We've asked the question and await an answer).

A tax charge raised on the write off of a loan is made under section 554C ITEPA. The loan charge is in two places. One is Sch 11 F(no2)A 2017 and Sch 12 ibid. Sch 11 deals with employment situations and Sch 12, self employment.

I believe that a loan charge under Sch 11 will be based on the value of the relevant step as at 5th April 2019, less the value of an earlier relevant step, being in this case section 554C.

So the write off - because it produces its own tax charge - will reduce the later loan charge.

I suspect the same effect happens in self employment scenarios but again I'm looking and seeking HMRC confirmation.

I would hope that a loan charge (if raised) in 18/19 would also reduce the tax charge on a write off in a later year. Again, checking and waiting.

[webberg]

Hi webberg,

Maybe I'm being dumb, but as far as I can see we have sod all legal protection if THL or anyone else decides to call in the entirety of our loans.


5% of the loan we get it written off and are covered in the future.

Seems like we'd be insane not to take this deal.

Are there protections? Yes but you have to use the documents you signed and contest the terms being applied and perhaps roll in a bit of trust law to help you.

Can you do this on your own? Yes, but let's be honest it's easier and cheaper as a group.

Can we (WTT) do this? No, we're not lawyers but we do have a solid and committed and growing daily group and good connections with law firms in the IOM and other places who will, for a fee, take this on.

Are there any guarantees that the loans will not be repayable? No. We think a Court may struggle for some of the reasons you mention (and some others) to find against you, but it's litigation and therefore uncertain.

Will writing the loan off be taxable? Yes.

Will I pay tax on the write off and also the loan charge? No.

Will I pay tax on the wrote off and the earlier years once the dust has settled? Probably not.

What here is certain and what is opinion? Nothing and most of it.

None of our clients will be taking the THL offer. Whether you chose to or not, I cannot help you with.

[Albert49]

THL

Hi webberg,

Maybe I'm being dumb, but as far as I can see we have sod all legal protection if THL or anyone else decides to call in the entirety of our loans.

Loans actually our own money? Doesn't matter.
Everyone knows it wasn't a real loan and HMRC has declared it income? Doesn't mater.
Loan provider lied to you about it being legal? Doesn't matter.
Basically fraud? Doesn't matter.
No info on the trust changing hands and no one replying to emails so you don't have a clue who actually holds it and what they intend to do with it? Doesn't matter.
Any guarantee that a judge will overturn a contract because of common sense...

Am I wrong on any of the above? Please tell me I am, because I am very, very worried right now

But for 5% of the loan we get it written off and are covered in the future.

Seems like we'd be insane not to take this deal.

Yes, I'd rather chew glass than give these people any money, and I'm so angry right now I'm scaring my gf (on Valentine's day as well... ) but I'll take not being ruined (or spending up to 30 years waiting to see if I'll be ruined) over pride any day.

(In case anyone throws any accusations of being a stooge at me, lets chat about tracking down these scum bags and dragging them into the light. Because why will they ever stop if there are zero consequences?)

Unfortunately whether you like it or not, the fact that you only appeared on these boards yesterday and have made multiple posts on the THL solution , your first being in support of someone whoclaims to have taken up THL's option is bound to make people suspicious, your final comment above does nothing to allay this.
If you want my opinion, I do believe taking THL's option will release you from any further obligation to pay back the loans, but I also believe that any attempt to force you to pay them back in the future by the trustees could be defended in court, if the people behind these schemes really thought they could recall the laons, do you think they would settle for 5% of their value ?
I do not think taking THL's option will avoid the LC , HMRC are quite clear that you have to repay the full amount in cash to avoid the charge, a write of of the loan will not suffice.

[Bemi]

No one thinks it will work, everyone thinks they are going for one last shakedown.

Then you haven't read as much as I have managed in a single day then, as it is not universal like you are saying. But anyone who disagrees just gets called a "THL mole", which is super mature and helpful.

However, you can't expect to get other people on forums to do your research and give guarantees.

This is a bit of a straw man. I have not asked anyone to do my research for me. I have asked if people who are RECOMMENDING that I and others take a particular course of action actually have any assurances that doing so would not be a financial disaster.

I think that's a very legit question.

For the former they don't know details and for the latter there are none. All you can do is cover yourself as best you can.

Thanks, that's the answer I was looking for.

[Bemi]

Stop wasting everyone’s time and your money. Speak to WTT yourself.

Wow, you get angry easily. Seems odd given you were trying to wind me up. Bullies often can't take what they dish out

Strike 2 on making assumptions by the way. I am speaking to WTT next week.

But I have every right to ask questions like anyone else and I am sure there are other people in future who will read the responses to those questions and learn from them as I have from reading others.

As for wasting your time...

YOU CHOSE to reply to someone who was stressed and upset by mocking them.

Then YOU CHOSE to get angry at their response correcting your assumptions.

So take some personal responsibility for how you choose to use your time.

[howcanigetyoualoan]

I think if you'd read other posts by me you will see that I am trying to determine if what THL provides actually writes off the loan.

Or you could just make a stupid reply, without this context, to show how clever you think you are.

Does that cover your question howcanigetyoualoan?

Stop wasting everyone’s time and your money. Speak to WTT yourself.

[dammit chloe]

I think if you'd read other posts by me you will see that I am trying to determine if what THL provides actually writes off the loan.

Or you could just make a stupid reply, without this context, to show how clever you think you are.

Does that cover your question howcanigetyoualoan?

I have not had any dealings with THL but have read a bit about their latest "offer" in the LCAG forums. No one thinks it will work, everyone thinks they are going for one last shakedown.

However, you can't expect to get other people on forums to do your research and give guarantees. For the former they don't know details and for the latter there are none. All you can do is cover yourself as best you can.

[Bemi]

just what I needed today

I'll write off your loan for 4% - how about that for an offer?

I think if you'd read other posts by me you will see that I am trying to determine if what THL provides actually writes off the loan.

Or you could just make a stupid reply, without this context, to show how clever you think you are.

Does that cover your question howcanigetyoualoan?

[howcanigetyoualoan]

Hi webberg,

Maybe I'm being dumb, but as far as I can see we have sod all legal protection if THL or anyone else decides to call in the entirety of our loans.

Loans actually our own money? Doesn't matter.
Everyone knows it wasn't a real loan and HMRC has declared it income? Doesn't mater.
Loan provider lied to you about it being legal? Doesn't matter.
Basically fraud? Doesn't matter.
No info on the trust changing hands and no one replying to emails so you don't have a clue who actually holds it and what they intend to do with it? Doesn't matter.
Any guarantee that a judge will overturn a contract because of common sense...

Am I wrong on any of the above? Please tell me I am, because I am very, very worried right now

But for 5% of the loan we get it written off and are covered in the future.

Seems like we'd be insane not to take this deal.

Yes, I'd rather chew glass than give these people any money, and I'm so angry right now I'm scaring my gf (on Valentine's day as well... ) but I'll take not being ruined (or spending up to 30 years waiting to see if I'll be ruined) over pride any day.

(In case anyone throws any accusations of being a stooge at me, lets chat about tracking down these scum bags and dragging them into the light. Because why will they ever stop if there are zero consequences?)

I'll write off your loan for 4% - how about that for an offer?

[Bemi]

I can assure you that nobody here would advise you to contact THL

Hi webberg,

Maybe I'm being dumb, but as far as I can see we have sod all legal protection if THL or anyone else decides to call in the entirety of our loans.

Loans actually our own money? Doesn't matter.
Everyone knows it wasn't a real loan and HMRC has declared it income? Doesn't mater.
Loan provider lied to you about it being legal? Doesn't matter.
Basically fraud? Doesn't matter.
No info on the trust changing hands and no one replying to emails so you don't have a clue who actually holds it and what they intend to do with it? Doesn't matter.
Any guarantee that a judge will overturn a contract because of common sense...

Am I wrong on any of the above? Please tell me I am, because I am very, very worried right now

But for 5% of the loan we get it written off and are covered in the future.

Seems like we'd be insane not to take this deal.

Yes, I'd rather chew glass than give these people any money, and I'm so angry right now I'm scaring my gf (on Valentine's day as well... ) but I'll take not being ruined (or spending up to 30 years waiting to see if I'll be ruined) over pride any day.

(In case anyone throws any accusations of being a stooge at me, lets chat about tracking down these scum bags and dragging them into the light. Because why will they ever stop if there are zero consequences?)

[webberg]

I think your notes might be mistaken or out of context.

I have checked with one the two people you may have spoken to and they confirm that we do not, under any circumstances, say that you require the material suggested by THL.

Please call tomorrow and ask for Graham

[Big Rod]

I can assure you that nobody here would advise you to contact THL

Hey Webberg,

The notes I took during the call say...

"Apply for deed off the back of options 1 or 2"

...With a sub-comment of...

"5% of loan value charge for such is outrageous"

Now I may have taken it out of context but the consultant confirmed that it's not something I can do myself to which I have maybe assumed they meant through THL due to the 5% notation.

If I shouldn't go to THL, then do I need a deed? If I do how do I go about it?

I'm not trying to create conflict or put you on the spot, I promise, I'm just trying to establish the best course of action for myself.

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply, thank you and I apologise if I hit a nerve.

[webberg]

Hi Webberg, thanks for replying.

I've actually already spoken with one of your guys.

The outcome was First...

- Contact HMRC for a settlement figure
or
- Join BIG Group to defend the position. (I've recently bought a small business so don't have the funds)

Off the back of either of them I should then approach THL for the 'deed'.

As I say, there seems to be a lot of conflicting info' on whether THL should be trusted.

I take from it that I should go to HMRC but I don't know how to start or what I should ideally put in the initial email.

And is this advice still applicable as opinions seem to differ.

I can assure you that nobody here would advise you to contact THL