2019 Loan Charge - Support Groups for best possible resolution

[webberg]

The key aspects for being a commercial loan will include the usual interest rate, repayment schedule, etc.

In the context of loans made to contractors as part of a scheme however there are some difficult stages to overcome.

1. Were you assessed as to your ability to repay the loan?

2. Was that assessment based on the contract you had at the time?

3. In which case why was the loan not recalled when that contract ceased?

4. Otherwise how might you repay the loan?

In theory (and practice), unsecured loans are made all the time and the lender takes a punt on repayment. Here however no lender has ever tried to recover the loan.

My opinion is that there are some fundamental issues with trying to bring the loan up the "commercial" exemption and that those hurdles were set when the loan was drawn up and as such trying to change them now, is going to be a difficult task. not impossible and I'm sure some advisers would be willing to take it on.

[creativity]

What if a loan was issued on commercial terms, so has to be repaid and also accrues interest?

If the loan was designed to disguise tax it doesn't matter how legal it is. For an AI it might be hard to define rules but for a human a disguised numeration loan should be easy to detect, if that makes sense...

[WalterWhite]

Commercial loans might include business loans, car loans, diy store credit agreements etc. They are all types of loans.
The law needs to define between them and loans HMRC define as avoidance loans. Most loans where you pass money to someone who hands it back to you as a loan will fail, even if you think/prove otherwise you'll still need to pay tax on them and argue it later.

What if a loan was issued on commercial terms, so has to be repaid and also accrues interest?

[creativity]

fair one

what about commercial loans? i'm not sure I understand what he means as I understood the loans I received to be commercial ones? surely every scheme offered commercial loans?

Commercial loans might include business loans, car loans, diy store credit agreements etc. They are all types of loans.
The law needs to define between them and loans HMRC define as avoidance loans. Most loans where you pass money to someone who hands it back to you as a loan will fail, even if you think/prove otherwise you'll still need to pay tax on them and argue it later.

[WalterWhite]

Not stupid, just lazy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_accounting_firms

fair one

what about commercial loans? i'm not sure I understand what he means as I understood the loans I received to be commercial ones? surely every scheme offered commercial loans?

[DotasScandal]

and what/who are the big four?
apologies if these are stupid questions

Not stupid, just lazy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_accounting_firms

[WalterWhite]

Very little chance of the 2019 loan charge changing for contractors with loans from schemes.
The only changes will be to ensure commercial loans aren't included - the big four are working on this now and it's all firming up.
It's not looking good imho.

what do you mean by commercial loans?

and what/who are the big four?

apologies if these are stupid questions

[creativity]

So you aren't confident that the 2019 legislation can/will be overturned/changed?

Very little chance of the 2019 loan charge changing for contractors with loans from schemes.
The only changes will be to ensure commercial loans aren't included - the big four are working on this now and it's all firming up.
It's not looking good imho.

[WalterWhite]

There are not that many scheme specific groups which remain in a state of being able to take action.

Many of the earlier ones are prepping for litigation.

Some have become hopelessly distracted with APN stuff.

Some have splintered as part time organisers struggle to find time.

Big Group is closed. It has reached its first objective and we are considering what version 2.0 should look like.

An action group against 2019 charge is a good idea (I think I've said that on these threads) but the question is who is organising it.

In many way BG V 2.0 would be sensible but the key issue we have is that whilst the cost of the exercise can be predicted with a degree of accuracy, I'm not convinced that that the benefit can be. In the absence of a decent cost/benefit I would need to be happy that a group would stay together long enough to get the job done (5 years), had enough funding (at least £1m) and would not fall prey to differing objectives, power struggles, cliques, etc.

Big Group has been and continues to be a very civilised place.

A group which has little potential benefit I fear may not be.

We'll see. When we have BG 2.0 worked out, we'll post it here (with advance permission from the usual places).

If somebody beats us to the punch on this one, so be it.

So you aren't confident that the 2019 legislation can/will be overturned/changed?

[webberg]

There are not that many scheme specific groups which remain in a state of being able to take action.

Many of the earlier ones are prepping for litigation.

Some have become hopelessly distracted with APN stuff.

Some have splintered as part time organisers struggle to find time.

Big Group is closed. It has reached its first objective and we are considering what version 2.0 should look like.

An action group against 2019 charge is a good idea (I think I've said that on these threads) but the question is who is organising it.

In many way BG V 2.0 would be sensible but the key issue we have is that whilst the cost of the exercise can be predicted with a degree of accuracy, I'm not convinced that that the benefit can be. In the absence of a decent cost/benefit I would need to be happy that a group would stay together long enough to get the job done (5 years), had enough funding (at least £1m) and would not fall prey to differing objectives, power struggles, cliques, etc.

Big Group has been and continues to be a very civilised place.

A group which has little potential benefit I fear may not be.

We'll see. When we have BG 2.0 worked out, we'll post it here (with advance permission from the usual places).

If somebody beats us to the punch on this one, so be it.

[Dylan]

Yes, Big Group's objectives are largely aligned with your own.
You'll also find they're the only game in town.

Unless you were using a scheme that is covered by the myriad of other scheme specific groups.

[DotasScandal]

Yes, Big Group's objectives are largely aligned with your own.
You'll also find they're the only game in town.

[cyberdynesc]

Apologies if there is already a thread covering this topic but I couldn't find one. The focus of this thread would be to discuss the relative merits of any support groups which exist, and are available for contractors to join.
My personal objectives would be:

• To achieve a fair settlement with HMRC which reduces the tax bill to the minimum ( without getting involved in dodgy "repayment" schemes )
• The achieve closure of the loans so that we don't have the fear of loans being called in in future ( e.g. getting the loan written off or the possibility of having the right to receive payments transferred to the contractor
• Given that the schemes were legal at the time we joined and given that they have utterly failed to fulfil any of their promises, the possibility of taking legal action to obtain a full or partial refund of the fees

I am aware of Big Group, although I don't yet know what their objectives are or whether their objectives align with my own. Does anyone know any other support groups and what they aim to achieve?