Reply to: APN Penalty - uncollectible

[DotasScandal]

IT Contractors are probably the worst sufferers of the Not invented Here syndrome.
To my surprise, CTAs seem to come in a close second!
All this a source of delight for HMRC indeed, no doubt

Hopefully circumstances will force pargmatism to prevail.

[webberg]

Part of the issue with resisting HMRC's approach on all schemes, not just Edge, is the fact that users have joined a number of different groups and/or done their own thing.

The groups may have different objectives and individuals may have settled, be in discussion with HMRC/lawyers or have their head in the sand.

However the only party helped by such diversity is HMRC.

I would suggest that those groups originally formed by users some time ago should consider, seriously, combining forces as the enquiry process moves into the next phase.

(And yes, I accept that this might be seen as an advert but nonetheless the above is sensible.)

[Wibble1]

There must be 2 Edge JRs then, coz the Dandy's not running the one I'm part of!!

Are you happy to share details of the 1 you are part of....in the hope it will help others. I'll also PM you.

[Tweedle]

If you want to make contact with the Edge group pm The dandy.

There must be 2 Edge JRs then, coz the Dandy's not running the one I'm part of!!

[mulberryblue]

Any more news on this?

I'd also like to make contact with group that's part of the JR which I had no idea was taking place else I'd have joined. I've had hector visit me and I need a way to stop having to pay for the time being.

If you want to make contact with the Edge group pm The dandy.

[Wibble1]

Going round and round....

Any more news on this?

I'd also like to make contact with group that's part of the JR which I had no idea was taking place else I'd have joined. I've had hector visit me and I need a way to stop having to pay for the time being.

[DotasScandal]

Going round and round....

[mulberryblue]

But he said he wasn't part of the Edge JR - so how is he planning to benefit from it?

[Dylan]

My understanding is that to benefit from the injunction against collection of the sum demanded under the APN, you have to be part of the JR.

He was talking about Edge.

[webberg]

My understanding is that to benefit from the injunction against collection of the sum demanded under the APN, you have to be part of the JR.

If you are not, then HMRC has no injunction against them and in the absence or expiry of a representation, there is nothing, legally, stopping them from collection.

In terms of penalty, it was HMRC's contention that they could apply for a non payment penalty even where you were part of the JR. The latest FTT decision says that they should wait until the JR is decided.

I suggest that somebody has made an error and perhaps thinks you were part of the JR and on discovering their error, tried to withdraw the email.

In my opinion, such an administrative error is unlikely to be a bar to collection and you should consider carefully payment.

[ScottW]

Don't think so.
Penalties can accrue, but the principal cannot be collected.
This was decided already at a much earlier stage. Court injunction.
Again, this holds only for those who are party to a yet undecided JR,

I'm not arguing either way - all I am providing is the narrative of what has occurred in this case.

Not part of JR however email received from HM Courts & Tribunals Service, First-tier Tribunal (Tax Chamber) following an appeal saying collection of APN and penalties, ‘shall be stayed and all time limits extended until 60 days after the determination of the underlying Judicial Review’.

Right or wrong I have no idea but that's what has happened.

[DotasScandal]

Please point to the unfettered injunction that exists for the Edge JR that prevents collection.

All I'm saying is that it exists for other schemes that have initiated JR. Maybe Edge is different.

[Dylan]

Don't think so.
Penalties can accrue, but the principal cannot be collected.
This was decided already at a much earlier stage. Court injunction.
Again, this holds only for those who are party to a yet undecided JR,

Please point to the unfettered injunction that exists for the Edge JR that prevents collection.

[DotasScandal]

But the main sum can be collected and penalties accrue.

Don't think so.
Penalties can accrue, but the principal cannot be collected.
This was decided already at a much earlier stage. Court injunction.
Again, this holds only for those who are party to a yet undecided JR,

[Dylan]

The general understanding is that the penalty is uncollectible until the JR is decided, for those that are party to the JR.

But the main sum can be collected and penalties accrue.