Reply to: APNs - why don't HMRC read the fecking law

[Wibble1]

According to the HMRC letter I have - Edge declared DOTAS in 2004...

So it it notifiable or not. Based on the fact that an APN cannot be issued if it is not notifiable and we know a couple of schemes have had APN's withdrawn, I thought it would be a good point secure point for 1/all groups fitting to nail down.

The BG must of Edge users so they must have looked that this as a means of having those APN's go away. I used it in my representation but was not upheld.

[Phaedridge]

Edge

According to the HMRC letter I have - Edge declared DOTAS in 2004...

[Nocaster]

A ray of hope?

It's the kind of investigating that Big Group is doing. Feel free to join.

I thought I was on my own in this. I'm so glad to see that there are people willing to fight this unfairness. Can't imagine how bad this would be before the internet.

[DotasScandal]

Is this not the kind of investigating that the Big Group should be doing

It's the kind of investigating that Big Group is doing. Feel free to join.

[Wibble1]

It's also a question of determining whether the 2004 variant was sufficiently the same as say the 2007 variant.

I think that is unclear and the DOTAS rules operate to determine uncertainty in favour of HMRC, surprise, surprise.

Is this not the kind of investigating that the Big Group should be doing. Surely it's a given that after the news of Montpellier APN's being withdraw because the scheme was not notifiable under the DOTAS rules all other schemes should be checked to see if they to are not notifiable and therefore not liable under the current rules for issuing APN's.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

And that is why NTRT is respected and looked up to by all other groups.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Unfortunately, it all comes down to money.

It cost us over £10k for the QC opinion of the APNs.

[DotasScandal]

Everyone has a choice.
a) Simply accept HMRC's position and pay the APNs, negotiate TTP, face enforcement proceedings etc.
or
b) Investigate whether there are grounds to challenge the validity of the APNs.
NTRT chose (b).

And that is why NTRT is respected and looked up to by all other groups.

Keep fighting the good fight.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Everyone has a choice.

a) Simply accept HMRC's position and pay the APNs, negotiate TTP, face enforcement proceedings etc.

or

b) Investigate whether there are grounds to challenge the validity of the APNs.

NTRT chose (b).

[webberg]

It's also a question of determining whether the 2004 variant was sufficiently the same as say the 2007 variant.

I think that is unclear and the DOTAS rules operate to determine uncertainty in favour of HMRC, surprise, surprise.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Edge started in 2005, why would it not be classed as a "grandfathered" product??

It would be grandfathered, but only in respect of the 2006 regulations (SI 2006/1543).

It's then a question of whether it was covered by the original 2004 rules (SI 2004/1863).
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0041863_en.pdf

[demby]

Edge started in 2005 if not before.

The document on the HRMC**ts website - updated 13th Jan 2016 states

Regulation 11: Arrangements excepted from Hallmark 5 (1) The arrangements specified in this regulation are— (a) those described in paragraph (2); and (b) those which are of the same, or substantially the same, description as arrangements which were first made available for implementation before 1st August 2006.

7.6.6 Test 4 – was the tax arrangement first made available on or after 1 August 2006? If the arrangements, or substantially the same arrangements (see paragraph 14.2.3 for guidance on ‘substantially the same’), forming the tax product were made available before 1 August 2006 (‘grandfathered’), then they are not disclosable by virtue of this hallmark. It is irrelevant whether a given legal entity made them available prior to 1st August 2006; what is important is whether any person made them available prior to this date.

Edge started in 2005, why would it not be classed as a "grandfathered" product??

[webberg]

My opinion is that Norla/Edge is a notifiable scheme.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Given that Edge started after DOTAS was introduced, and it involved employment, it was probably notifiable.

[Wibble1]

(1) When was the Edge scheme first made available to anyone?

(2) Were the users self-employed or employees?

I'm aware the Edge Consulting were operating in 2007. They acted as the employer. The contractor dealt with Norla Group. Some blurb from their sales pack below. In this they state "Our EBT has been registered with HMRC since inception in April 2005"

Norla Consulting is an all-inclusive service for freelance contractors that has been operating for more than 4 years. We currently have more than 700 active Contractors and are proud that most of them are still with us, a testament to our level of service.

We have a Master Supply Agreement with Edge Consulting based in the Isle of Man allowing you to be paid in a mixture of salary and payments from an Employee Benefit Trust (EBT). This means that you retain between 82% and 85% of your contract value after all taxes, national insurance and fees of 10% have been taken into account.\

Fully IR35 compliant.

Comprehensive Insurance Cover including Professional Indemnity Insurance of £1 million.

Norla is UK based. Our service is only available to freelance contractors who are tax resident in the UK. We do not provide a service to foreign nationals unless they are living and working in the UK. We can provide a service to UK nationals who are temporarily working overseas.

Norla have been operating for over 4 years and currently have over 700 contractors in our care. We have a very experienced back office team that have many years experience in looking after Contractors. We pride ourselves on our level of service which is why most Contractors who join Norla stay with us.

We will act as your umbrella company in the UK. We will enter into a contract to supply you to your agency/client. However you will be employed by Edge Consulting as detailed in their documentation.

You will submit your timesheets to us at agreed intervals and we will raise an invoice to your agency/client. We will collect in all payments due in respect of those invoices and make payment to Edge in a timely manner. In order to achieve this you must make sure that you submit your timesheets on time as delays can result in payments being received late.

Both Edge and Norla engaged tax advisers to seek Counsel’s Opinion before embarking on this arrangement. Tax Counsel is satisfied that our solution is fully compliant with UK tax legislation. We regularly seek reviews of our arrangement and as soon as there is any change in tax legislation, we will notify all of our Contractors with alternative arrangements.

Edge Consulting are an all-inclusive service for freelance contractors who are tax resident in the UK. We are based in the Isle of Man giving us greater flexibility in paying our employees.

We can pay you in a mixture of salary and payments from an Employee Benefit Trust (EBT), resulting in you retaining between 82% and 85% of your contract value after taking into account all taxes, national insurance and your fees of 10%.

Fully IR35 compliant.

A Master Supply agreement with Norla in the UK who will do all of your invoicing and collect all payments from your agency/client. This gives you access to a back office team with years of experience offering a high quality service to hundreds of contractors.

A service that has been approved by Tax Counsel as being fully compliant with UK tax legislation.

Our EBT has been registered with HMRC since inception in April 2005. We make full disclosure to the Inland Revenue every year.

EU compliant contract of employment designed for us by employment lawyers, Browne Jacobsen.


It's not surprising that contractors moved to these with all the scare of IR35.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

(1) When was the Edge scheme first made available to anyone?

(2) Were the users self-employed or employees?