Reply to: Rangers Tax Case

[Not Losing Any Sleep]

Has there been any news on the judgement release? rumors seem to indicate HMRC lost again!

Until you hear the judgement, rumours are BS.

[z4thras]

Has there been any news on the judgement release? rumors seem to indicate HMRC lost again!

[ireland2013]

Saunders vs Vautier

http://www.newtonandco-accountants.com/blog/

Interesting read on HMRC argument on rangers and application of Saunders vs Vautier

Quote
If it transpires that the sub funds were drafted in this way, then this is a powerful argument in HMRC’s favour. However, while this may result in HMRC winning the PAYE/NIC battle in this case, the facts would be so specific that they may lose the wider war on EBTs in general.

[webberg]

Can you provide a little clarification:

(1) How can HMRC delay a court decision - is the court not independent ?
(2) Why would HMRC prefer to have the decision after the CLSO final date ?

1. When a decision is ready it is sent to the parties for comment before being released. Usually this is a simple and quick process and takes a couple of days. I am however aware of one instance where a decision about to be released was withheld whilst HMRC made "suggestions" to the Judge that parts of the written narrative were in need of correction or clarification. Ultimately, aside from some minor issues, the decision was released but it took 6 weeks, rather than 2/3 days.

2. The CLSO is an untested assertion from HMRC of their view of what the tax should be. By their own admittance they have insufficient information to determine all the taxes due (esp IHT) and reserve the right to revisit parts of the "settlement" in the future. It does not cover the potential tax position when the loans are finally dealt with. If the Murray case is an HMRC loss BUT you have settled, then you have lost the right to amend the settlement even if it is then incorrect legally.

QED

[regron]

Not sure if regron was serious or joking,.... .

Was serious about the appeal, but got the wrong court

[Underbase]

I understand that could be the final step. I expect it to happen.
HMRC are well known for going full retard with anything they do, and strangely, spending public money like there is no tomorrow seems fine when it's about HMRC pursuing largely lost battles.

If they lose and I was BDO who are winding up the Murray Group if I am correct, I would go for costs, and I imagine (excluding for now the damage to the Club) the lawyers bills will be reasonably large. Might make for some bad reading in the press.

[DotasScandal]

Can they not appeal to supreme court in England?
I assumed that was their plan - so they can have ago at the PL Clubs who paid players via EBT.

I understand that could be the final step. I expect it to happen.
HMRC are well known for going full retard with anything they do, and strangely, spending public money like there is no tomorrow seems fine when it's about HMRC pursuing largely lost battles.

[ireland2013]

Supreme Court

Can they not appeal to supreme court in England?

I assumed that was their plan - so they can have ago at the PL Clubs who paid players via EBT.

[DotasScandal]

Not sure that the UK Government would want to be seen going to the EU court against British people at the moment, that might be a step to far for some of those back bench torries. Might be the push we need.

Not sure if regron was serious or joking, but I don't think they can do such a thing. The court in question is the EC of Human Rights... Not sure what "human right" HMRC could argue has been broken in their case.

[Underbase]

I bet it won't stop them appealing to go to the European Court though, just to drag matters out further !

Not sure that the UK Government would want to be seen going to the EU court against British people at the moment, that might be a step to far for some of those back bench torries. Might be the push we need.

[regron]

The first, I have no idea I wouldn't have thought it possible either.

The second, I would say that if this is found against them, well then they have a high profile case that has gone all the way to the top and lost. Means people are more likely to chance their arm rather than settle.

I bet it won't stop them appealing to go to the European Court though, just to drag matters out further !

[Underbase]

Can you provide a little clarification:

(1) How can HMRC delay a court decision - is the court not independent ?
(2) Why would HMRC prefer to have the decision after the CLSO final date ?

The first, I have no idea I wouldn't have thought it possible either.

The second, I would say that if this is found against them, well then they have a high profile case that has gone all the way to the top and lost. Means people are more likely to chance their arm rather than settle.

[dangerouswhensober]

Sorry to disagree, but there is no correlation between time in Court, time to decision and the outcome of the decision.

If the blogger is accurate then my OPINION is that HMRC has not managed to turn the decision around.

however, this is tax and the detail is important. We will have to wait and see.

Being a cynical type I would suggest that HMRC will do their utmost to keep the decision outstanding beyond the alleged CLSO final date of 30th September.

I can think of no way to legally force a decision BEFORE that date without a potentially expensive JR.

If you have CLSO calculations, I would RECOMMEND waiting until the last possible moment and preferably extending that moment with a reasonable challenge.

Can you provide a little clarification:

(1) How can HMRC delay a court decision - is the court not independent ?
(2) Why would HMRC prefer to have the decision after the CLSO final date ?

[webberg]

If true that would surely mean HMRC lost again. If the decision was going to be overturned then I would expect it to take the full 4 days.

A rangers win again making it 3-1 in their favour would be a huge kick in the teeth for HMRC

Sorry to disagree, but there is no correlation between time in Court, time to decision and the outcome of the decision.

If the blogger is accurate then my OPINION is that HMRC has not managed to turn the decision around.

however, this is tax and the detail is important. We will have to wait and see.

Being a cynical type I would suggest that HMRC will do their utmost to keep the decision outstanding beyond the alleged CLSO final date of 30th September.

I can think of no way to legally force a decision BEFORE that date without a potentially expensive JR.

If you have CLSO calculations, I would RECOMMEND waiting until the last possible moment and preferably extending that moment with a reasonable challenge.

[WalterWhite]

Reading between the lines, I think the scheduled four day hearing only took two days. The Lords have said that it will be a while before the judgement comes out.

If true that would surely mean HMRC lost again. If the decision was going to be overturned then I would expect it to take the full 4 days.

A rangers win again making it 3-1 in their favour would be a huge kick in the teeth for HMRC