APNs and the deseased

[BrilloPad]

I do hope the OP is okay.

I have received some PMs. If anyone wants any help feel free to PM me.

[zimbtar]

Just came across this - from a few weeks ago.

Worth a read - may or may not be useful.

Can Bankruptcy Repel APNs? - Contractor Weekly

The requirement for an individual to pay tax before the final liability has been decided and which may cause that person to become bankrupt without having a right of appeal does appear to be an imbalance of justice and therefore in conflict with Human Rights legislation. One for the lawyers therefore but for those contractors who receive an APN this may give them some crumbs of comfort or a straw to clutch at least.

[BrilloPad]

Having a letter from a shrink to send to HMRC will make things a lot better. I can't say more in public - but PM me if you want and I can send some pointers.

[lilikins1]

Since an APN relates to a debt that HMRC think you owe, I can't believe that they would let a minor inconvenience like you being dead get in the way of them chasing the money.

LOL so true

[webberg]

Sorry to be morbid but does anyone know how HMRC would treat these three scenarios?

1. A person is on the list to receive APNs. They die before receiving the pre-APN letter. Would HMRC still issue APNs?
2. A person receives the pre-APN letter but dies before receiving the APNs. Would HMRC still issue the APNs? Could the person's family ask for them not to be issued, or ask for them to be withdrawn when they arrive?
3. A person receives APNs but dies before the 90-day due date. Would HMRC still enforce them with penalties? Would the person's estate be liable?

The answer to all the above questions is "yes".

That said, the advice above is sound and should not be ignored. It is imperative that you speak with someone quickly and get some perspective on this situation.

Firstly, unless you are well and healthy you cannot deal with the nonsense and stress of this invidious and pernicious set of laws. Your first and main responsibility is to yourself and your family and you MUST concentrate on that. Seek professional help and self help groups. Don't be afraid to discuss how you feel.

Most males have a real issue with admitting to feeling depressed or unable to cope. This is a macho image thing and is frankly stupid. Speaking personally as one who has "been there, done that", the sooner you admit there is a problem that needs solving, the quicker you can deal with it and move on.

Secondly, as has been observed, if you've not got the cash or the assets, what can HMRC actually do? Very little. You might get a few letters, perhaps a visit. You could take the initiative and go to them.

Get some help, it's never as bad as it seems.

[zimbtar]

Take heart. They cant take what you don't have!! (Which is what my accountant said to me)

I would also need a TTP for the rest of my (working) life.

It's hard to see that, we all know, believe me - there are many on here that have already been to the bottom and it's a slow climb back up.

There are threads on here that will give you possible avenues of at least a delay - a couple are -

BIG Group - http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...big-group.html

APN Representations - http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...n-grounds.html

It certainly isn't all over and it isn't as bleak as you may think at the moment.

Above all - SPEAK TO SOMEONE!!!

[ads1980]

I would also add that if TTP were to take you 20 years then so be it. I can't afford to pay back what HMRC are claiming and TTP also won't be sufficient if it's only 2 years. But so be it. They can have some money over a period of time or have nothing. Dont let them frighten you in to thinking like this. That's exactly what they are looking to do and that's exactly what BIG GROUP is going to fight against. Chin up mate. Nothing is worth the options you first posted. Worst case scenario, sell up and move abroad to a nice hot country where you can visit the beach most days and drink some nice cold beers whilst you are at it. And also make sure it has no ties with the UK (oh wait, did I say worse case scenario?! Sounds like a pretty good option to me! Haha)

[dangerouswhensober]

Absolutely agree with ads1980, Dylan and DotasScandal - if you are asking for reasons which are more than hypothetical, then please don't consider any of those outcomes. You might find it difficult to believe, but there are many, many people who are in a worse situation than you - think about those highly-paid professionals (e.g. footballers) who are being assessed for (literally) millions of pounds and who haven't a hope of paying now that their high-earning days are over.

Also, you are making the mistake of confusing what HMRC say you owe with what you may actually owe (legally, that is) and that latter amount could be a big fat zero, depending on the outcomes of many legal cases currently in motion or yet to be started.

Any recovery action by HMRC is going to be a fair way into the future for most people, and is going to be very difficult for HMRC - both in terms of their available resources and the legal processes involved.

And remember the example of two other groups - the NTRT guys and the Montpellier people - HMRC action has been going for YEARS against these groups, and (as far as I know) HMRC has not recovered any signifiant amounts from either (but correct me if I'm wrong ...)

The best thing you can do is just to keep working as normal, watch how the situations develop regarding appeals against APNs, and try not to worry - that's easier said than done, but, believe me, it gets easier over time. Also, join one of the groups which are fighting against HMRC - talking with people in a similar situation will be theraputic, at the very least.

And finally - do yourself a favour and don't join any more schemes ...

[DotasScandal]

You are not alone in a configuration like this. In fact, there are many, many of us! So chin up! There are many groups out there, already active or in the process of assembling. Stand your ground against the bullies, there will come a better day and they will get their retribution for the misery they have created.

[Dylan]

As far as I am concerned, they can only take what you can afford to give to them surely. Making you homeless or bankrupt isn't going to help anyone here. Please don't consider any of the outcomes in your initial post.

+1

It isn't that bad, honestly. Worst case bankruptcy, take a year out, rent a house, learn some new skills, spend time with family. Clean the slate and start again, seems pretty good compared with the options you mention and I bet your family would feel the same.... If you seriously feel like they are realistic options please seek some help, there is plenty of support if you are willing to ask for it. What scheme were you in?

[ads1980]

My situation is pretty dire but probably not atypical.People who used the scheme have started receiving APNs, so I know it's only a matter of time. Iwas in the scheme from 2006 to 2012 (6 years) and ljust over £200k. We've got very little savings, even selling the house would barely cover half. TTP isn't an option unless they gave me 20 years. Up the creek basically.

As far as I am concerned, they can only take what you can afford to give to them surely. Making you homeless or bankrupt isn't going to help anyone here. Please don't consider any of the outcomes in your initial post.

[jr123]

My situation is pretty dire but probably not atypical.People who used the scheme have started receiving APNs, so I know it's only a matter of time. Iwas in the scheme from 2006 to 2012 (6 years) and ljust over £200k. We've got very little savings, even selling the house would barely cover half. TTP isn't an option unless they gave me 20 years. Up the creek basically.

[TheFaQQer]

Since an APN relates to a debt that HMRC think you owe, I can't believe that they would let a minor inconvenience like you being dead get in the way of them chasing the money.

[regron]

Very concerning post to read and I hope I am interpreting the post incorrectly ! Seek advice on your personal situation. There are plenty of people on here including Tax Professionals who can help. If you are happy to reveal a little more situation on what scheme you were involved in, someone will point you in the right direction to join one of many groups, which have been set up to help fight as a collective.

[jr123]

Sorry to be morbid but does anyone know how HMRC would treat these three scenarios?

1. A person is on the list to receive APNs. They die before receiving the pre-APN letter. Would HMRC still issue APNs?
2. A person receives the pre-APN letter but dies before receiving the APNs. Would HMRC still issue the APNs? Could the person's family ask for them not to be issued, or ask for them to be withdrawn when they arrive?
3. A person receives APNs but dies before the 90-day due date. Would HMRC still enforce them with penalties? Would the person's estate be liable?