Reply to: Russian troops massing on the Ukraine border

[Paddy]

Kiev (capital of modern Ukraine) was the capital of "Russia" for a long time, in fact at the time the whole entity was called Kievskaya Russ (Kiev's Russia) - just as you said.

Ukraine as a country of 40 mln people where at least 25 mln would self identify as Ukrainians is close to half of UK population.

What would happen if Putin get Ukraine or most of it to himself? After that Belarussia will fold into it too, and Putin will recreate modern version of USSR - do you really think he'd do less tulip in the world in this case? Most certainly he will become even more dangerous - new Cold War has begun, not yet officially but effectively that's what will happen now that he crossed the line.

I hope so. I am fed up of getting separate visas for these ex Soviet Republics.

[AtW]

Worth noting that Ukraine as a country has only really existed for about 100 years and the word itself is derived from the Russian word for borderlands, probably because on olden times it was the edge of Kievan Rus'. So maybe there's a case for one big Velikaya Rossiya.... I was making a point but I can't remember what it was now!

Kiev (capital of modern Ukraine) was the capital of "Russia" for a long time, in fact at the time the whole entity was called Kievskaya Russ (Kiev's Russia) - just as you said.

Ukraine as a country of 40 mln people where at least 25 mln would self identify as Ukrainians is close to half of UK population.

What would happen if Putin get Ukraine or most of it to himself? After that Belarussia will fold into it too, and Putin will recreate modern version of USSR - do you really think he'd do less tulip in the world in this case? Most certainly he will become even more dangerous - new Cold War has begun, not yet officially but effectively that's what will happen now that he crossed the line.

[shaunbhoy]

I was making a point but I can't remember what it was now!

That's okay. You've come to the right place!

[stek]

Worth noting that Ukraine as a country has only really existed for about 100 years and the word itself is derived from the Russian word for borderlands, probably because on olden times it was the edge of Kievan Rus'. So maybe there's a case for one big Velikaya Rossiya....

I was making a point but I can't remember what it was now!

[lukemg]

Damn, hit the buy button too quick on my Russia ETF, still underwater but holding firm, happy to hold currently....

[MicrosoftBob]

As a message to Pooty Poot, shouldn't we be asking Poland if they mind having NATO trooping massing on their eastern border ?

[Ticktock]

Not exactly. What I was suggesting was that the democratic will of the majority of a country's population was ignored to pander to the whims of a vocal, and heavily armed, minority. An unwanted partitioning was enforced that was clearly undemocratic, and as we pride ourselves on our utilisation of the democratic principles of fairness and representation, it left us with egg on our faces IMHO.
In that sense there is a parallel.

Ah, still not sure I agree.
In Ireland as a whole in the late 19th / early 20th Century the democratic will moved towards home rule. In NI, there was actually a majority population who wanted to remain a part of the UK. So your position that it was "clearly undemocratic" is questionable.
In Crimea recently it is highly debateable as to how valid the results actually were. That's ignoring the events in Crimea leading up to the referendum. Also, there is a difference between a vote for independence and a vote for changing sovereignty from one country to another, especially when that other country is in de facto control of the region already.

To take Ukraine and Crimea as a parallel to Ireland and NI you would need to change history. While the end results may be similar, the manner in which this has happened is vastly different.
Example 1: What would be more similar would be a world where Ukraine is part of Russia. It campaigns and lobbies for home rule, which is granted, however the majority Russian population in Crimea are fiercely opposed to this, and allowed to remain part of Russia.

Example 2: Ireland is part of the UK. Ireland votes for Home Rule and this is granted. Gaelic becomes the official language. The English majority population in Northern Ireland are unhappy and want a degree of autonomy from Dublin, which is granted. After a pro-British Taoiseach is elected in Dublin, he makes English an official language. He is later deposed after attempts to move Ireland politically closer to the UK. The law making English an official language is repealed. The UK is unhappy and decide that they will punish Ireland. They move troops into NI, help depose the local leader and place a puppet supporter in their place, etc, etc... we know the rest...

[shaunbhoy]

What shaunbhoy is suggesting is that the UK pulled out of Ireland as a whole, then decided they wanted NI so moved back in, using the significant English (or English descended), pro-Union majority as an excuse to do so.

Not exactly. What I was suggesting was that the democratic will of the majority of a country's population was ignored to pander to the whims of a vocal, and heavily armed, minority. An unwanted partitioning was enforced that was clearly undemocratic, and as we pride ourselves on our utilisation of the democratic principles of fairness and representation, it left us with egg on our faces IMHO.
In that sense there is a parallel.

[Coalman]

Was Polish first I think?

No, that was East Prussia. Its been a German area until Stalin decided he didn't want Germans there a n d changed the borders.

[stek]

It's always been Königsberg, however those who live there won't be able to vote to join Germany because in Russia (like in many other countries) it's not even possible to vote to leave the country, yet Russia thinks it's ok to join.

All this tulip happens because Western politicians are pathetic - there is no Churchill in hiding, sadly McCain lost elections, if it was him in charge then Putin would have never done it.

Was Polish first I think?

[AtW]

Have a look at the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, should they give that back?

It's always been Königsberg, however those who live there won't be able to vote to join Germany because in Russia (like in many other countries) it's not even possible to vote to leave the country, yet Russia thinks it's ok to join.

All this tulip happens because Western politicians are pathetic - there is no Churchill in hiding, sadly McCain lost elections, if it was him in charge then Putin would have never done it.

[AtW]

You appear to be trying to argue with me, when I don't disagree with you. I didn't make a value statement, I pointed out an inaccuracy in a post on a different point.

Yeah, I think we are broadly in agreement. I don't know UK history that deep to comment.

[Ticktock]

You appear to be trying to argue with me, when I don't disagree with you. I didn't make a value statement, I pointed out an inaccuracy in a post on a different point.

Things that were normal last century are no longer acceptable, especially given how fake referendum was and how the whole situation was handled.

I agree.

Due to that it does not even matter if it's same thing or not, frankly in my view it's closer to much more unacceptable behavior of Hitler that triggered WW2 - compare Putins speech vs what Hitler said and they are very very close, with just one main difference - Putin did not even bother to lie saying he is happy with the new borders of his New Reich.

I sort of agree. I think Putin and Hitler had different goals and, to an extent, different motivations, and I think those will cause different behaviours. I think it's true to say that both are expansionists, but in different ways.
Putin may not really be after land so much as territory. As I've said before, he's a fully indoctrinated Soviet, harkening back to the days when the USSR was a superpower instead of an emerging economy. He'll take a bit of land, sure, but he'd rather have a load of proxy governments running things for him in the satellite states and giving him power, instead of having to go to the trouble of actually maintaining power there himself.

I would write more, but I just saw the time, so screw you guys, I'm going hurm.

[stek]

Have a look at the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, should they give that back?

[AtW]

It makes the statement "What Russia have done in the Crimea has very close parallels with what we did in Ireland about a century ago." incorrect.

Things that were normal last century are no longer acceptable, especially given how fake referendum was and how the whole situation was handled. Due to that it does not even matter if it's same thing or not, frankly in my view it's closer to much more unacceptable behavior of Hitler that triggered WW2 - compare Putins speech vs what Hitler said and they are very very close, with just one main difference - Putin did not even bother to lie saying he is happy with the new borders of his New Reich.