Reply to: England blame Pietersen for Ashes hammering

[Mich the Tester]

Tell that to Jason Gallian



That said, Michael Vaughan said he had no problem with him when he was captain, during which time Pietersen scored arguably the most important century in English cricket in the 21st century.

The captain messed up there and had a tantrum. Giving someone a right good bollocking is one thing, and sometimes necessary, but losing it and chucking kit around is no good at all; it shows the captain as weak.

[DirtyDog]

This, and let's not forget that previous captains and coaches have managed him quite well.

Tell that to Jason Gallian

The breaking point for Pietersen came on the last day of last season when the Notts captain Jason Gallian allegedly threw his kit from the balcony and broke his bat before tossing it on to the Trent Bridge turf.

That said, Michael Vaughan said he had no problem with him when he was captain, during which time Pietersen scored arguably the most important century in English cricket in the 21st century.

[Mich the Tester]

If we're just looking at batting averages from the last series, only Ben Stokes would be playing.

Bairstow - 12.25
Ballance - 12.50
Cook - 24.60
Bell - 26.11
Root - 27.42
Carberry - 28.10
Pietersen - 29.40
Stokes - 34.87

If you can't manage someone, then make it clear that the reason they aren't playing any more is because the captain and coach cannot manage them.

This, and let's not forget that previous captains and coaches have managed him quite well.

[DirtyDog]

If we're just looking at batting averages from the last series, only Ben Stokes would be playing.

Bairstow - 12.25
Ballance - 12.50
Cook - 24.60
Bell - 26.11
Root - 27.42
Carberry - 28.10
Pietersen - 29.40
Stokes - 34.87

If you can't manage someone, then make it clear that the reason they aren't playing any more is because the captain and coach cannot manage them.

[Mich the Tester]

I'm comparing two team sports.

I think your perception of football is distorted by the money involved. Make no mistake, financial success in football requires sporting success. The very richest clubs might buy big name players who will sell shirts but there are very few of those (clubs or players) around. For the vast majority sporting success is vitally important. Look at what champions league qualification, promotion to the premiership, or winning the league is worth. To get those rewards you need to win football matches, and to pack a stadium week in week out you need to be winning or at least putting up an entertaining fight. That's why most clubs spend big money on players.

IPL cricket is a similar game.

International sport is different as teams are restricted in terms of player availability, but ultimately they also need to sell tickets and shirts or the sport dies out.

Of course, but still, the job of a professional football or cricket company manager is different to that of a national team manager, with different considerations; some people can do either job well, many can't. That's because they're very different jobs. Alex Ferguson did a fantastic job for his football company's owners, but might not have done as well for a national team; unfortunately we probably won't find out.

I know I might seem cynical in calling Manchester United and so on 'football companies', but that is what they are; they're businesses that have to pay the bills and Alex Ferguson was a very good businessman in his sector. That's not to take away from the quality of the sportspeople they employ, it's to try and keep things in perspective and remove the emotional guff that clogs up decision making.

[DirtyDog]

He averaged 29.

He has no excuses getting punted after that.

And even with that, he still averages 47 over his career.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

[doodab]

You're comparing a professional football company with an international cricket team; two entirely different environments. One is a business that is about making money, the other is a sports team that's about winning matches. People get very emotional about sports, and that's a good thing because it makes them spend their money on it, but people who've actually been at a high level in a sport often have a more ruthless or less romantic view of this. So while the test cricket selectors have the job of picking the guy who's likely to perform well, and thereby keeping their options open, the footie manager has the job of picking the people who are likely to bring in the cash and thereby keeping his financial options open.

I'm comparing two team sports.

I think your perception of football is distorted by the money involved. Make no mistake, financial success in football requires sporting success. The very richest clubs might buy big name players who will sell shirts but there are very few of those (clubs or players) around. For the vast majority sporting success is vitally important. Look at what champions league qualification, promotion to the premiership, or winning the league is worth. To get those rewards you need to win football matches, and to pack a stadium week in week out you need to be winning or at least putting up an entertaining fight. That's why most clubs spend big money on players.

IPL cricket is a similar game.

International sport is different as teams are restricted in terms of player availability, but ultimately they also need to sell tickets and shirts or the sport dies out.

[Mich the Tester]

He averaged 29.

He has no excuses getting punted after that.

And Cook 24. I'd of got rid of Cook.

Poor form is a good reason to drop someone, but it's not a reason to exclude someone permanently.

[MarillionFan]

He averaged 29.

He has no excuses getting punted after that.

And Cook 24. I'd of got rid of Cook.

[minestrone]

He was England's top scorer. Just because you have one maverick in the team he isn't responsible for everyone else's tulip performance around him. That's like saying because I post on CUK that's why your posts are always so pish.

He averaged 29.

He has no excuses getting punted after that.

[Mich the Tester]

Not really no. Veron came in for Beckham and flopped, and he described losing Stam as his "biggest mistake".

The key thing he understood was that it's a team game, a team with 8 out of 11 ordinary guys playing well will beat a team with a couple of superstars and a bunch of can't be arsed makeweights.

You're comparing a professional football company with an international cricket team; two entirely different environments. One is a business that is about making money, the other is a sports team that's about winning matches. People get very emotional about sports, and that's a good thing because it makes them spend their money on it, but people who've actually been at a high level in a sport often have a more ruthless or less romantic view of this. So while the test cricket selectors have the job of picking the guy who's likely to perform well, and thereby keeping their options open, the footie manager has the job of picking the people who are likely to bring in the cash and thereby keeping his financial options open.

[DirtyDog]

Perhaps it's an acknowledgement that reintegrating him was a mistake.

Looking at the positions that he was fielding in Australia, he wasn't really integrated, for a senior player with over a hundred test caps to his name.

[DirtyDog]

If it's genuinely about planning for the future (and it isn't), but surely the ECB will be ditching Carberry as well, since he is the same age as KP.

So every cloud, silver lining and all that.

[doodab]

The time to get rid of him would have been in 2012, then. He was reintegrated into the team at the behest of Cook, so I wonder what has happened this year to have turned the situation around.

Perhaps it's an acknowledgement that reintegrating him was a mistake.

[Mich the Tester]

Ferguson had the advantage of going out and buying a world-class replacement (or Laurent Blanc). Football has an open(ish) market, so he could always look for someone to bring in quickly.

You can't do that here, though.

Indeed, perhaps for less than he could sell the older bloke and keep some change to buy another top class player. Two for the price of one. Professional football is a business.