Reply to: M1

[Sausage Surprise]

what it should actually mean is less crashes and with everbody doing the same approx speed, less congestion.

so journey times will become more consistent

and with everybody doing 56mph more economical too!

How do you work that out? Crashes are down to bad driving surely?

[KentPhilip]

I vote in the Oxfordshire local elections*, but on national issues non Oxfordshire people are taken into consideration and that affects me. The people cannot control the outcome, because as a member of the UK everyone else gets to vote too. Same thing, different scale.

Sure, because Oxfordshire is part of a state called the UK. But the UK is not part of a state named Europe or the EU. In order for this to happen we would have to merge the UK into a single country named Europe or EU, and this has not happened. The UK electorate have not voted for this to happen nor given any kind of consent in the matter.

Traditionally changes in the makeup of countries happen as a result of a war. We don't want to go there

[VectraMan]

The whole idea of a democracy in this country is that those people in the country have the ability to control the outcome collectively through a vote. This cannot be done as a member of the EU because votes from non British people are taken into consideration.

On issues that affect the whole of the EU. It's not like the whole of the EU is voting on what just Britain should do.

I vote in the Oxfordshire local elections*, but on national issues non Oxfordshire people are taken into consideration and that affects me. The people cannot control the outcome, because as a member of the UK everyone else gets to vote too. Same thing, different scale.


*Actually, like most people, I generally CBA. But that's not the point.

[KentPhilip]

So British people good, foreigners bad? Not a lot you can say to that.

It's democracy. A minority don't get to have their way over the wishes of the majority. That's kind of the point.

I am not saying that foreigners are bad, I am saying they are not British.
The whole idea of a democracy in this country is that those people in the country have the ability to control the outcome collectively through a vote. This cannot be done as a member of the EU because votes from non British people are taken into consideration.
British people in Britain are by definition the majority. We are everyone!

[Epiphone]

We have just had managed motorway changes completed on the m62 around Leeds and it has made travel better in many ways..

Name three.

And that's not being combative, I'm genuinely interested. EG it's 1am and the gantry is set to 60MPH on an empty road. Pointless. Haven't noticed any changes during rush hour. Oh, and the camera's in the gantries are speed cameras and are on all the time, not just to monitor traffic flow.

[VectraMan]

Not in ours - most of the time in this country, more people have voted against whatever gang of gits get to be in charge than for.

It's a fair point. I've been warming to the idea of FPP - at least it keeps the UKIP nutters out.

[AtW]

Stupid yes, but the government have no choice in the matter because they've surrendered their powers to the EU.

Nobody in EU demands UK reduces already low motorway speed limits.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

It's democracy. A minority don't get to have their way over the wishes of the majority. That's kind of the point.

Not in ours - most of the time in this country, more people have voted against whatever gang of gits get to be in charge than for.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Not this then: United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 1975 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By a Labour government no less....

That referendum was about membership of the EEC not the later EU.

No-one specifically consulted the electorate before Thatcher signed away a significant proportion of our sovereignty in the Single European Act in 1986. As usual, she said one thing but did another - claiming to be against an EU super state but signing up to the single biggest step in its foundation. Politicians!

[darmstadt]

Maybe we would, but that is not the point. It would be nice if we had a choice in the matter.



No it isn't the same influence.
In the UK, elections are 100% influenced by British voters. In the EU elections the figure is, say, 10%. i.e. we have the votes of a load of foreigners determining the outcome on matters that affect the UK. We don't want that. There has been no referendum where the UK electorate has stated that we wish to merge our political powers with europeans, so UK politicians have had no mandate to set this in place.

Not this then: United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 1975 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By a Labour government no less....

[VectraMan]

In the UK, elections are 100% influenced by British voters. In the EU elections the figure is, say, 10%. i.e. we have the votes of a load of foreigners determining the outcome on matters that affect the UK.

So British people good, foreigners bad? Not a lot you can say to that.

It's democracy. A minority don't get to have their way over the wishes of the majority. That's kind of the point.

There has been no referendum where the UK electorate has stated that we wish to merge our political powers with europeans, so UK politicians have had no mandate to set this in place.

So UK politicians need to have a referendum for every decision they make? Don't think so.

Yes perhaps this was an important issue worthy of a referendum, but at the end of the day, politicians principles go where the votes are. If there'd really been a lot of opposition to progressing from the EEC to the EU in the 90s it never would have happened. Yet John Major, who was always pro-EU, won the election in 1992 with the largest popular vote in history.

[KentPhilip]

You're assuming we wouldn't have exactly the same sort of laws if it wasn't for the EU.

Maybe we would, but that is not the point. It would be nice if we had a choice in the matter.

If you don't like the way the EU operates you can express your opinion by voting in the EU elections. Which is exactly the same amount of influence you have over the way the British government operates.

No it isn't the same influence.
In the UK, elections are 100% influenced by British voters. In the EU elections the figure is, say, 10%. i.e. we have the votes of a load of foreigners determining the outcome on matters that affect the UK. We don't want that. There has been no referendum where the UK electorate has stated that we wish to merge our political powers with europeans, so UK politicians have had no mandate to set this in place.

[KentPhilip]

Note the word 'guidelines', doesn't mean law...

Whether you call it "guidelines" or "law" the effect is still the same - financial coercion by the EU on the British state.

[VectraMan]

So it is still the case that the EU are forcing the British government to make changes to the way that we drive and use the roads. This is wrong - it should be the British electorate who decide these things in Britain, not the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

You're assuming we wouldn't have exactly the same sort of laws if it wasn't for the EU.

If you don't like the way the EU operates you can express your opinion by voting in the EU elections. Which is exactly the same amount of influence you have over the way the British government operates.

[darmstadt]

So it is still the case that the EU are forcing the British government to make changes to the way that we drive and use the roads. This is wrong - it should be unelected bureaucrats in Westminster who decide these things in Britain, not the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

FTFY

WHS +1. You really think an MP came up with that idea and not a faceless civil servant who dropped it into an MP's lap?