Reply to: Iran's 60 year war against Israel

[maxima]

Perhaps if Saddam Hussein was still in power he would be able to contain Iran now just like he did in the 80s.

this is simply not true. iran was developing this bomb for several years (10?)...

[Mailman]

Shocking to learn that the UN post fired upon the Isreali army no less than ten times, no wonder the armys paitience was exhausted and then they took it out.

We should all leave the UN now as a protest against these filthy terrorists.

fire 10 times and still managed to miss he side of the Golan Heights!

Mailman

[NickIT]

Maybe the moron who started the "let the UN fight back" was right after all? if the UN was armed to the teeth and allowed to fight back then maybe Herbulla wouldnt have dared venture anywhere near the post?

Mailman

The problem is not one of the Blueys not shooting back...its one of what the rules of engagement are.

And as most are written by diplomats it does often leave the Blueys in a unenviable position.

I am still quite gobsmacked that Hezbollah were allowed that close.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Maybe the moron who started the "let the UN fight back" was right after all? if the UN was armed to the teeth and allowed to fight back then maybe Herbulla wouldnt have dared venture anywhere near the post?

Mailman

Shocking to learn that the UN post fired upon the Isreali army no less than ten times, no wonder the armys paitience was exhausted and then they took it out.

We should all leave the UN now as a protest against these filthy terrorists.

[Mailman]

What I would like to know is how Hezbollah was allowed access to the base and its surrounds...

I had no idea that this had happened and I can see why the Isreali's would consider it to be a legit target.

Madness.

Maybe the moron who started the "let the UN fight back" was right after all? if the UN was armed to the teeth and allowed to fight back then maybe Herbulla wouldnt have dared venture anywhere near the post?

Mailman

[NickIT]

What I would like to know is how Hezbollah was allowed access to the base and its surrounds...

I had no idea that this had happened and I can see why the Isreali's would consider it to be a legit target.

Madness.

[NickIT]

Well this puts a different slant on things....

After the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah, and the subsequent bombing campaign began against Lebanon, CTV.ca received an email from Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, a Canadian Forces soldier serving with the UN in South Lebanon.

"If you are interested in a Canadian perspective on the events of yesterday and what is happening here in the area I am serving in, I can provide some concise info for you about the current situation," he wrote.

With the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Major Hess-von Kruedener was the only Canadian serving as a United Nations Military Observer in Lebanon. He was stationed at the UN base about 10 kilometres from where the Syrian, Lebanese and Israeli borders meet. The UN's mission there is to report ceasefire violations.

On July 25, that base came under fire from Israeli artillery and was struck by a precision-guided aerial bomb. Four UN observers died. On July 26, the federal government said Hess-von Kruedener was missing and presumed dead.

Here is his full email, written July 18, with background on the mission and the current situation:

We have had a brief "tactical pause" in the action here, so I am taking this opportunity to provide you some information on the situation here in south Lebanon. At the outset, I will provide you with a brief background on who I am, What the Org and Mission is here and then answer some of the bank of questions you provided.

Background

My name is Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, and I am an Infantry Officer with the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, of the Canadian Forces. I was sent to this Mission (United Nations Truce and Supervision Organization -UNTSO) last October 05, and am currently serving as an unarmed Military Observer. I have now been stationed here in south Lebanon for Approximately nine months.

I am currently writing to you from the UN Patrol Base Khiam, which is situated approximately 10 km from the nexus of the Israeli, Lebanese and Syrian Borders. I am serving with Observer Group Lebanon, or OGL, and I am on Team Sierra. The Patrol Base is named after the village it is situated in, El Khiam, which sits on one of four ridges which dominates both the Hasbani River valley, which then changes to the Houla Valley when it crosses the Lebanon-Israel border 10 km to our south.

The patrol base was initially an observation post and was built in 1972, but was later destroyed in 1976 during the fighting between the PLO and the South Lebanese Army (SLA). In 1978 it was rebuilt again and manned by elements of the Norwegian Battalion serving with UNIFIL. In 1980, Observer Group Lebanon (OGL) assumed responsibility for it. Historically, the area of the El Khiam and Hasbani valleys to the north and the Houla valley to the south have been the main axis for invasion in to Lebanon and Palestinian Territories.

Mission

The mission of Team Sierra and OGL within the greater context of UNTSO is to maintain the integrity of theWithdrawal Line (Blue Line), and report on any and all violations or activities that threaten the cease-fire and international peace and security here along the Lebanese/Israeli border, and Israeli Occupied Lebanon, and to support the UNSC resolution 1559, within our mission mandate.

Information Requested

(1) Currently, there are several nationalities that are here on the patrol base with me. I am serving with an Australian, Chinese, Finnish, Austrian, and Irish Officers. They come from various different backgrounds, levels of experience and services (Army, Navy and Air Force) from within their militaries.

(2) I have been here for nine months of a one-year tour of duty. Since I have arrived here in Lebanon, this current incident is the fourth I have seen and by far the most spectacular and intensive.

* The first was 21 Nov 05, when the Hezbollah tried to capture IDF soldiers from an IDF observation position overlooking the Wazzani river near the town of Ghajjar on the Blue Line. This action was unsuccessful and resulted in the deaths of the Hezbollah raiding force.
* On 01 Feb 06, a young shepherd boy was Killed by an IDF patrol near an abandon goat farm called Bastarra. Hassan Nasrallah (note: Hezbollah's leader) vowed that there would be consequences to this action. Team Sierra was tasked on 2 Feb 06, to assist in the investigation of the incident, and we sent one team to do so while the other team conducted its normal mobile patrolling activities.
* On 03 Feb 06, a limited engagement took place initiated by the Hezbollah on several of the IDF defensive positions located in occupied Lebanon.
* Then on 28 May, the Islamic Jihad (PLO) fired rockets from South Lebanon, into Israel, which elicited an immediate aerial bombardment of positions near our patrol base and in the Bekka valley.



(3) Our Team's normal operational activities are to plan, and execute daily vehicle and foot patrols of the Blue Line area within our area of responsibility. Unfortunately, with the current artillery and aerial bombing campaign being carried out by the IDF/IAF, it is not safe or prudent for us to conduct normal patrol activities. Currently, we are observing and reporting on all activities in our area of responsibility, with specific attention to activities along the Blue Line, which is clearly visible from our hilltop position.

(4) Team Sierra is currently observing both IDF/IAF and Hezbollah military clashes from our vantage point which has a commanding view of the IDF positions on the Golan mountains to our east and the IDF positions along the Blue Line to our south, as well as, most of the Hezbollah static positions in and around our patrol Base. It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hezbollah has taken place in our area. On the night of 16 July, at 2125 hrs, a large firefight broke out between the Hezbollah and the IDF near a village called Majidyye and lasted for one hour and 40 minutes.

(5) Based on the intensity and volatility of this current situation and the unpredictability of both sides (Hezbollah and Israel), and given the operational tempo of the Hezbollah and the IDF, we are not safe to venture out to conduct our normal patrol activities. We have now switched to Observation Post Duties and are observing any and all violations as they occur.

This is all the information of a non-tactical nature that I can provide you. I cannot give you any info on Hezbollah position, proximity or the amount of or types of sorties the IAF is currently flying. Suffice to say that the activity levels and operational tempo of both parties is currently very high and continuous, with short breaks or pauses. Please understand the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias. As an Unarmed Military Observer, this is my raison d'etre.

What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

I thank you for the opportunity to provide you with some information from the front lines here in south Lebanon.

Maj Hess-von Kruedener

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...0716/20060719/

[DodgyAgent]

Two Solutions;

First, west pulls out, leaves Israel to sink or swim on it's own.
Downside: tulip load of bloodshed, death in short term
Upside: West is not faced with 40 more years of being dragged into this "tulip"

And while Israel exists, especially with it's current belligerent, we can do anything we want and west will do nothing except moan in public while shipping more missles to us in private, attitude this tulip will never stop.

If Israel lost that support it would either sink very fast or be forced to reach some accomodations with it's neighbours which do not involve wholescale bombing of civilian populations over the kidnapping of two military personnel, nor locking up kids and teens in military prisons, nor sending out para military hit squads to operate on foreign soil

Other Option would be send, in force, imparcial "peacekeeping" troops who took a hard line against both sides

Downside: Western military personnal yet again dieing in "someone else war"
Upside: Israel might have a chance to survive and west might actually start to look impartial enough to properly broker (and then enfoce) any long term peace agreement.

sorted then

[Not So Wise]

Two Solutions;

First, west pulls out, leaves Israel to sink or swim on it's own.
Downside: tulip load of bloodshed, death in short term
Upside: West is not faced with 40 more years of being dragged into this "tulip"

And while Israel exists, especially with it's current belligerent, we can do anything we want and west will do nothing except moan in public while shipping more missles to us in private, attitude this tulip will never stop.

If Israel lost that support it would either sink very fast or be forced to reach some accomodations with it's neighbours which do not involve wholescale bombing of civilian populations over the kidnapping of two military personnel, nor locking up kids and teens in military prisons, nor sending out para military hit squads to operate on foreign soil

Other Option would be send, in force, imparcial "peacekeeping" troops who took a hard line against both sides

Downside: Western military personnal yet again dieing in "someone else war"
Upside: Israel might have a chance to survive and west might actually start to look impartial enough to properly broker (and then enfoce) any long term peace agreement.

[DodgyAgent]

And? Let them find their own way to "democracy" (Highly overrated imo as to work properly it requires an informed, inteligent population who give a damn about more than themselves) instead of basiclly trying to force it on them at the end of a barrel of a gun.

Israel was a mistake from the get go and the only 2 reasons the west supported it because it was still feeling guilty over the holocaust (german's might have done it but most of the west at one time or another would have liked to) and second it was a nice tidy "solution" to the jewish problem of millions of displaced jews that no one really wanted.


Here true, but take one look at the current leader of western democracy, a democracy that is meant to be the most advanced and multicultural in the world, and what do you see? Religious factions gaining more power every single year, hell the current leader of the USA would not even be there without religous backing and nor is there likely to be one any time soon who does not have it.


It's "our war" for one reason and one reason only, oil.
If there was not so much of it in the arab countrys no one would give a damn, just like no one gives a damn about most african countrys, good or bad. Israel gives the west a official reason to be in the region, thats all.

so what is your solution? bear in mind these things work both ways. If it was not for oil then maybe you are right the west would take little interest. But that works both ways. Because the muslim states do have oil they therefore have the money and the power to exert influence outside their national borders in a way that Sudan and Zimbabwe could not.

[Not So Wise]

Israel has no chance of survival unless it wipes out at least Hizbollah. ...By wiping out Israel it eradicates tha West and its (our) values of democratic freedom from its territory.

And? Let them find their own way to "democracy" (Highly overrated imo as to work properly it requires an informed, inteligent population who give a damn about more than themselves) instead of basiclly trying to force it on them at the end of a barrel of a gun.

Israel was a mistake from the get go and the only 2 reasons the west supported it because it was still feeling guilty over the holocaust (german's might have done it but most of the west at one time or another would have liked to) and second it was a nice tidy "solution" to the jewish problem of millions of displaced jews that no one really wanted.

The reason why religion in this country in particular snf the west as a whole has such little influence is because our society is too sophisticated, too well educated to be bothered. Religion is therefore marginalised.

Here true, but take one look at the current leader of western democracy, a democracy that is meant to be the most advanced and multicultural in the world, and what do you see? Religious factions gaining more power every single year, hell the current leader of the USA would not even be there without religous backing and nor is there likely to be one any time soon who does not have it.

That is why this war is also our war

It's "our war" for one reason and one reason only, oil.
If there was not so much of it in the arab countrys no one would give a damn, just like no one gives a damn about most african countrys, good or bad. Israel gives the west a official reason to be in the region, thats all.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Oh Dear looks like another regieme change is required for Iraq, dont these guys in Iraq understand what democracy is about, the freedom to say what your political masters want to hear ?

President George W Bush said he had a “frank exchange” of views about Lebanon with Prime Minister Nuri al Maliki, amid growing congressional unease over the Iraqi leader’s recent description of Israeli’s actions in the country as “criminal”.


Senate Democrats on Tuesday sent a letter to the Iraqi leader ahead of his address to Congress on Wednesday. They called his statements on Israel “troubling” and said his failure to condemn Hizbollah’s aggression “raises serious questions about whether Iraq under your leadership can play a constructive role in resolving the current crisis” in the Middle East.



A separate letter, signed by 20 House Democrats, went further in urging the Republican leadership to cancel Mr Maliki’s address to Congress. “We are unaware of any prior instance where a world leader who actively worked against the interests of the United States was afforded such an honour,” it said.

Mr Maliki, however, speaking at a joint press conference alongside Mr Bush on Tuesday, however side-stepped a question about his views on Hizbollah. “The important thing here is what we are trying to do is to stop the killing and the destruction.”

Mr Bush said Mr Maliki had pressed him on the “seriousness of the humanitarian crisis in Lebanon and the need to do more for the Lebanese people,” but added that “the prime minister was pleased to hear my strong support for the Siniora government.”

Concern about worsening security conditions in Baghdad dominated talks between the two leaders, which marked the first visit of Mr Maliki to the White House.

[NickIT]

What was the name of that US spy ship that the red sea pedestrians blew holes in back in 1967?

With the result that Cairo nearly got nuked by mistake?

Septics never did a thing about all the US servicemen that were killed...

The Liberty.

[lilelvis2000]

Phew. I was getting worried there that it would not be taken it seriously.

In reality, I don't the Israelis care. It does not affect them. All they care about is the polls. The IDF have killed UN troops and foreign civilians on many occasions before and covered up the circumstances. On numerous occasions they have stated that an investigation cleared the IDF troops of any wrongdoing. Most Israelis believe the government. On the few occasions that it has reached court, as a result of persistent outside pressure, the IDF soldiers have been found guilty of manslaughter/murder.

I don't recall reading anything about that? They are usually acquitted at a military tribunal arn't they?

What I do know is that the Israeli "terrorists" within Israeli that plant bombs and such in Arab towns and in Palestinian schools - get off with only a few months in "jail".

[lilelvis2000]

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

Accidents Can Happen as Elvis Costello used to sing.

Imagine though it was Hezbollah that accidentally hit the UN observation post.

What would people have to say ?

Just fancy that.

The UN post is well marked and has been in that location for decades. It seems the Israelis don't want any witnesses. I smell cluster bombing slaughter to begin once the UN decides to pull out.

As for Hezbollah - their weapons are much less accurate and have managed to avoid the UN post so far. One point for Hezb.

So far Hezb seems to be ahead in the propoganda "war". The Israelis seem to be shooting themselves in the foot. Why should the Israeli's care - they are all destined for heaven and we're not.