Reply to: FAO Brillo and Dallas; endurance training

[BrilloPad]

Hey mich. can recommend you get a carb drink for ur water bottle,

Things like high5 are very good but expensive.

If money is tight you can use Maltodextrin from Myprotein

[Dallas]

Perhaps controversially I would do away with ur weight training.
I focus on short course triathlons anyway so would bow to the experience of those doing longer stuff

for sprints fine, going longer you need to do weights and core

[No2politics]

FAO Brillo and Dallas; endurance training

Hey mich. can recommend you get a carb drink for ur water bottle, helps me no end on long rides. take one of those, and another bottle with just water, a gel and perhaps a cereal bar and sees me ok for about 3.5 hours. With a shorter high intensity session u want to replace your salts but for longer stuff I find a carb drink is better.

Perhaps controversially I would do away with ur weight training. I imagine from your rugby training u have plenty power in those pistons. You want to get leaner, so Consider replacing with another endurance ride or maybe a run.

I focus on short course triathlons anyway so would bow to the experience of those doing longer stuff

[Mich the Tester]

Well, I did a 75km ride on Saturday, nicely wrapped up in balaclava and cold weather gear, ate about half a biscuit every 15 mins and drank a total of 1 litre of home made isotonic drink along the way (weak squash with a little salt) and it felt pretty good; I didn't hit the wall after 2 hours and the last 1/2 hour was hard work but not beyond me, so I guess the training effect was good. HR was between 130 and 150 nearly all the way, which might be a bit high to carry on for longer, but it all felt fine. Average speed 30 kph.

Afterwards I went into town and bought a Tacx VR home trainer, put it together then rode on Sunday morning; 10kms on an up and down hilly course, again averaging 30kph. This morning I feel fine, none of the symptoms from last week's ride, so this evening perhaps I'll do some warming up on the bike then a bit of weight training for my legs and some core training; working late tomorrow so no ride, then back on the Tacx on Wednesday. That thing is brilliant; Lady Tester used it too and enjoys it, which is good news for removing the christmas insulation layer.

[Mich the Tester]

Its only a personal opinion - but I reckon one is built for speed or endurance. I just wish I had discovered that before I was 48.

Look on the bright side; the endurance types tend to carry on into their 60s or even longer, while most speed types have buggered up half their muscles before they're 40, lost their speed and have to do something else altogether or turn into fattywobbles. Think; Chris Hoy turns into Chris Hoy's dad. Some bloke at the Dutch olympic sport institute made scans of retired skating and running sprinters' hamstrings and found that a lot of what looks like muscle on the outside is actually scar tissue.

[BrilloPad]

How much of this endurance thing (all day riding) is actually genetic? I know that I'm naturally a sprint/explosive strength type; obviously rugby involves speed and strength and at school and college I was good at 100 metres and chucking stuff (discus, shot and so on), but useless at any race where you couldn't see the end from the start; although perhaps at the time I was just too bloody lazy to run a long way. I didn't understand what other people found difficult about running fast until I heard the explanation about muscle fibre types and that sprinters have more type IIb fibres, but I always thought that basically 'speed is natural but endurance can be trained'. I know that endurance athletes struggle at speed events, but am I at a disadvantage being a sprinter type adapting to endurance?

In know loads of theory about training for strength and speed, but this endurance thingy is a bit new to me.

Its only a personal opinion - but I reckon one is built for speed or endurance. I just wish I had discovered that before I was 48.

[Dallas]

How much of this endurance thing (all day riding) is actually genetic? I know that I'm naturally a sprint/explosive strength type; obviously rugby involves speed and strength and at school and college I was good at 100 metres and chucking stuff (discus, shot and so on), but useless at any race where you couldn't see the end from the start; although perhaps at the time I was just too bloody lazy to run a long way. I didn't understand what other people found difficult about running fast until I heard the explanation about muscle fibre types and that sprinters have more type IIb fibres, but I always thought that basically 'speed is natural but endurance can be trained'. I know that endurance athletes struggle at speed events, but am I at a disadvantage being a sprinter type adapting to endurance?

In know loads of theory about training for strength and speed, but this endurance thingy is a bit new to me.

you have fast and slow twitch and the bit inbetween - its the inbetween bit that you can influence directly. There are a few documentaries: footballer->multiday marathon runner and fattie to kenyan contendor.

Depends how much time you have on your hands and how much 'quality' stuff you can knock out. Endurance cyclists also do TTs - so your view is a bit generic?

On that note - pool time

[Mich the Tester]

How much of this endurance thing (all day riding) is actually genetic? I know that I'm naturally a sprint/explosive strength type; obviously rugby involves speed and strength and at school and college I was good at 100 metres and chucking stuff (discus, shot and so on), but useless at any race where you couldn't see the end from the start; although perhaps at the time I was just too bloody lazy to run a long way. I didn't understand what other people found difficult about running fast until I heard the explanation about muscle fibre types and that sprinters have more type IIb fibres, but I always thought that basically 'speed is natural but endurance can be trained'. I know that endurance athletes struggle at speed events, but am I at a disadvantage being a sprinter type adapting to endurance?

In know loads of theory about training for strength and speed, but this endurance thingy is a bit new to me.

[Mich the Tester]

[QUOTE=Dallas;1676126]1.

So I should just mix up the training as I can (sometimes long work days get in the way so I might only have 30 to 40 minutes for a quick ride), make sure I do one long ride at weekends, and then use the bleeper to eat every 15 to 20 minutes and have a swig of fluid? QUOTE]

Depends. Look at the course you are going to do; considering distance and climbing. When is the event - what month? Then factor in heat impact and comfort. I work backwards from there.
My next big one is beginning of July, so hot, and with 6 climbs that i know and have done before. So for me at the min my focus is 50:50 volume and intensity. Over easter I go on a camp to see how I fare and what I need to do to bridge any gaps to get me to July. I am a biig unit so for me it is usually hill reps and longer rides - eventually building the hill reps into the big climbs and wrapping your nutrition around that.

2.

Nairns cranberry oatcakes are cheap, if a bit dry, regarding air to eat - i would take half an oatcake per 15mins not a full one, 15mins = 1 mouthfull not a meal. According to your calories, yep you are a big one too - I would aim for 600 replacement, you are not replacing 1:1 on calories. Thats is approx x4 gels and a bottle (depending what it is and concentrate) - pretty similar to me. But you can play with bars and other stuff as well.

THX, yep I was down to 15 stone having stopped playing 18 months ago; peak fitness for rugby I was 16 stone with about 12% body fat. Unfortunately I went to Australia on holiday and seem to have got close to 16 stone again in the last few weeks despite blasting all the hotel exercise bikes to tulip in bursts of 3 and 4 km time trial type sessions. But on monday evening I rode the real bike again for about an hour and felt incredibly fit as though nothing could stop me and probably rode faster than I've ever ridden for an hour even though I've put on a few pounds and have suddenly developed a strange thing called a 'belly'; I just didn't have my speedo working as the battery had died, but I could feel the speed and felt like I could do another hour at the same speed. Then tuesday morning I was completely and utterly shagged out, so tuesday I didn't train. Wednesday evening I did some leg weights and core training as there was black ice outside and even I'm not stupid enough to risk that. Yesterday rest, perhaps this evening a quick 30 minute blast and then tomorrow an endurance ride with the club. I really want to get down to 14 stone, which is still too much for endurance cycling up and down hills but it's a start. My problem though is that I tend to build muscle mass very quickly from high intesity work and could get chubby very quickly if I don't do lots of aerobic work, so when the roads are unrideable I can end up getting big again.

[BrilloPad]

I heard the best way of building up endurance for cycling is to satisfy the dutch ladies volleyball team twice. If you aren't up to it and need a second just let me know.

<cue abusive email from Dallas>

[Dallas]

Right then, the cycling club are doing a 2 hrs plus ride tomorrow, so I'll go with them; there are enough points on the route to shorten it and ride home after a couple of hours, but I guess the secret is to keep eating and drinking little bits every 15 minutes instead of the big swig of iso-gator-something-ade and energy bar every 40 to 45 minutes that rugby conditioned me to do.

Energy bars, gels or cookies?

Bucket of pasta afterwards or my favourite stewed beef and mash?

Sunday 30 minutes or so in a low gear to recover?

Does this sound like a plan?

Done this before? 100% selfsufficient (layers, tools and food) and bike in good nick or you'll delay the ride, cyclists dont like that.

Head for majority protein after, please ask your other guys what stretching they do and copy (ie roller, ITB, hammies and back). Your sunday, my mum can do better than that, looks pointless? 15mins out then turn back? If sat is a 2 hour consistent undulating pace (cyclists usually chatter the whole way) then make sunday your interval and stretch some more day - or yoga, swim, run, row, corework ... crosstraining is not to be sniffed at

[BrilloPad]

Right then, the cycling club are doing a 2 hrs plus ride tomorrow, so I'll go with them; there are enough points on the route to shorten it and ride home after a couple of hours, but I guess the secret is to keep eating and drinking little bits every 15 minutes instead of the big swig of iso-gator-something-ade and energy bar every 40 to 45 minutes that rugby conditioned me to do.

Energy bars, gels or cookies?

Bucket of pasta afterwards or my favourite stewed beef and mash?

Sunday 30 minutes or so in a low gear to recover?

Does this sound like a plan?

You certainly want pasta tonight. Personally I try to eat normally afterwards.

[doodab]

So if I do 2.5 hours this saturday and then 3 next weekend with riding a few times when I get the chance in between, and then try to add 30 minutes each weekend plus interval work on weekdays am I on the right track?

Yes basically although I'd make every 4th week an "easy" week and back off a bit. Also pay attention to nutrition as others have said. One important thing is recovery eating i.e. stuffing your face with lots of complex carbs as soon as possible after you get off the bike. The sooner you eat them the better your body processes them, the better you will recover, and the better prepared you will be for the next session. I swear by bananas and powerade personally but each to their own.

[Dallas]

1. [QUOTE=Mich the Tester;1676079]So I should just mix up the training as I can (sometimes long work days get in the way so I might only have 30 to 40 minutes for a quick ride), make sure I do one long ride at weekends, and then use the bleeper to eat every 15 to 20 minutes and have a swig of fluid? QUOTE]

Depends. Look at the course you are going to do; considering distance and climbing. When is the event - what month? Then factor in heat impact and comfort. I work backwards from there.
My next big one is beginning of July, so hot, and with 6 climbs that i know and have done before. So for me at the min my focus is 50:50 volume and intensity. Over easter I go on a camp to see how I fare and what I need to do to bridge any gaps to get me to July. I am a biig unit so for me it is usually hill reps and longer rides - eventually building the hill reps into the big climbs and wrapping your nutrition around that.

2.

Perhaps a few biscuits and a snickers per hour? According to the calculators on the internet I'm burning 1200 to 1300 calories per hour at 30+ kph given that I'm still not exactly a waif, and i can't imagine stuffing that much food in every hour unless I take some gels. How many calories can I reasonably expect to take on per hour while riding without getting nauseous or using up all my air to digest the food ?

Nairns cranberry oatcakes are cheap, if a bit dry, regarding air to eat - i would take half an oatcake per 15mins not a full one, 15mins = 1 mouthfull not a meal. According to your calories, yep you are a big one too - I would aim for 600 replacement, you are not replacing 1:1 on calories. Thats is approx x4 gels and a bottle (depending what it is and concentrate) - pretty similar to me. But you can play with bars and other stuff as well.

[Mich the Tester]

Right then, the cycling club are doing a 2 hrs plus ride tomorrow, so I'll go with them; there are enough points on the route to shorten it and ride home after a couple of hours, but I guess the secret is to keep eating and drinking little bits every 15 minutes instead of the big swig of iso-gator-something-ade and energy bar every 40 to 45 minutes that rugby conditioned me to do.

Energy bars, gels or cookies?

Bucket of pasta afterwards or my favourite stewed beef and mash?

Sunday 30 minutes or so in a low gear to recover?

Does this sound like a plan?