Reply to: Dawkins

[rob s]

Freedom of speech != freedom from consequences.



However I agree that religion corrupts:

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Friedrich Nietzsche

[formant]

Alot of religions insist "adults" renew their faith. Confirmation for Catholics. And don't the Amish let their kids decide at 16 if to join them or not?

Lutherans do Confirmation, usually at 14. At that age it's still just something you just do (mostly for the presents), rather than a proper choice. For what it's worth, I was already an outspoken atheist when I had my Confirmation - neither my (really not very religious family) nor my (very liberal) vicar had an issue with that. I didn't officially leave the church until I got my first part-time job and was meant to pay church tax (this was in Germany).

The Amish do get some time to re-evaluate their commitment (Rumspringa), but one could argue that after all those years of complete isolation from other input, not much is going to shatter their faith.

These sort of 'renewals' would be half decent if they weren't just as habitual and/or forced as the rest of religion in childhood.

[BrilloPad]

I have a lot more respect for religious people who've found their preferred denomination by means of making an active and voluntary decision.

Alot of religions insist "adults" renew their faith. Confirmation for Catholics. And don't the Amish let their kids decide at 16 if to join them or not?

[formant]

If you believe that religion to be the best thing for them then you would make sure they are brought up in it. Not to mention all the religious events e.g. Jewish ceremonies, Easter/Xmas, Eid etc

Well, some people think that corporal punishment is 'the best thing' for them. Doesn't make it right. Or legal, for that matter.

Most religions come embedded with a lot of fear-mongering and unpleasantries, that I don't think are suitable realities for young children. Not that it matters what I think, but depending on how far some religious parents go with that, it simply is psychological abuse.

[formant]

Absolute nonsense.

we brainwash our kids from day 1.

we just don't know we are doing it

Not as explicitly as "we" do with regards to religion. Not sure I've ever heard a kid proclaim that they originate from a deeply conservative/liberal/labour family, when many quite happily advertise the brand of religion that's been forced upon them.

I don't think religious belief is particularly honest if it's simply the only 'truth' someone's ever been taught. I have a lot more respect for religious people who've found their preferred denomination by means of making an active and voluntary decision.

[lilelvis2000]

Does he have a new book coming out. Or is it just time to have a go.

Strike him off my card list I should.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I think he's right, but it's a bit silly to single out Catholicism like that.

We don't shove our political beliefs down our kids throats from day one, so why not leave religion till they're old enough to form their own opinions?

If you believe that religion to be the best thing for them then you would make sure they are brought up in it. Not to mention all the religious events e.g. Jewish ceremonies, Easter/Xmas, Eid etc

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I'm an Atheist and I find his witterings ******* annoying and embarrassing. He's the Abu Hamza of non believers.

Good comparison

[OwlHoot]

So who is that swivel-eyed atheist then? He's talking a load of nonsense from start to finish.

Firstly, Jesus didn't expect _everyone_ to drop everything, only his disciples (Matthew 19:21) "Give everything you have to the poor, and [i]follow me[\i]"

Secondly, in his day practically every Jewish person believed the end times were near, not based on his teachings but Old Testament prophesies from centuries earlier.

[Zippy]

I am not having a go at people who are believers. I'm having a go at those who prey on believers.
You know that though, don't you? And so does Dawkins (despite the several foot-bullet interface moments in his books).

I don't think we should confuse lack of belief in a deity with a lack of understanding of the purpose of the message.

[EternalOptimist]

Stealing in the name of the Lord

I generally dont like having a pop at JESUS or other religious leaders
or even religions

because there are so many people who get a lot of pleasure from their beliefs in same.

plus, I may be wrong. I have been wrong many times in my life.


A falsehood that creates a lot of pleasure (santa) is better than a truth that creates a lot of unhappiness (Auswitch)

but eventually the child will tell you that the truth will be better for them than the pleasurable lie. So you tell them gently that Santa is a lie and that Auswitch is the truth.

But Some people (for reasons that I do not comprehend) can believe that Santa really exists AND that Auswitch really happened

They are doubly blessed. Dawkins, let them get on with it

[Zippy]

Stealing in the name of the Lord

[doodab]

Absolute nonsense.

we brainwash our kids from day 1.

we just don't know we are doing it

Those are some wise words.

[EternalOptimist]

I think he's right, but it's a bit silly to single out Catholicism like that.

We don't shove our political beliefs down our kids throats from day one, so why not leave religion till they're old enough to form their own opinions?

Absolute nonsense.

we brainwash our kids from day 1.

we just don't know we are doing it

[Cliphead]