Reply to: Massive investment in India by IBM

[The Lone Gunman]

Dodgy: I don't want to protect the market and I dont want to stop migrant workers (I have been one for 8 years), what I want is the protections that exist to be removed.
I want to see third world goods at third world prices.
Allowing the manufacturers to source at third world costs for production but charge 1st world prices to us is going to lead to all jobs (apart from customer facing and scurity related) going abroad. We will rapidly become a tourist economy.
Even if we get third world prices we are not going to have it easy and could still end up in a deflating economy.
Business may succeed, but I am not just thinking about my own back pocket. I realy see doom in this.

I also dont see why a foreign company can come and raid the British economy when it is almost impossible for us to set up companies in those foreign lands.

[DodgyAgent]

What I am saying is that immediately you advertise the job as a Windows based one then its considered more commodity. Windows is available everywhere and so are the development environments like C , anyone in the world who has a laptop and the time and patience to sit down and learn has these facilities available , and pirate copying has made this more accessable.

Its not hard for someone who has some resonable communication skills then to apply for such positions.

Im not saying that its a low skill job at all , it may require more skills than a mainframe job of the same type , but less people will have had access to a mainframe so they will be in a more niche market.

I am not convinced that skilled foreigners are also rushing to go to the UK , there are better options in other countries.

I have not suggested anything about Indians being bad communicators , my previous post says regardless of nationality , this is a global market and its not just Indians that are in this market .

I am still on a contract at 420 quid a day , and if you read this post http://www.contractoruk.com/news/002685.html then you will see that there are many contractors on more than me.

I have herd all the scaremongering over many years but I still get a good wage so why havent all these low cost foreigners taken my job ? In fact the agent did tell me when I was asking for this rate that rates were dropping because of outsourcing etc. etc. , and I then asked him why he was bothering to ring me back if that was the case.

If you have a good niche skill then stick out for your rate , if you are in a more commodity type market then I agree rates will be depresssed but dont get into a price war with low cost foreign workers nobody is going to win that.

Someone speaking some sense at last. I will disagree with you on two points:

Firstly Indians are poor communicators, they have a habit of nodding in agreement to everything whether they understand what is going on or not. They also will not challenge their superiors (usually too late if something goes wrong). Indians are really only worthwhile doing anything other than grunt work if they have worked in a western environment.

Secondly you will be surprised at just hopw many foreigners want to work , believe me ( ) there are a lot of them. Interestingly it is not just the wages it is as much to do with the attractions of coming to the UK as anything else.

The great strength of our UK contractors is that they are so strong at forming the link between IT and business (except of course for you lot ). This is why the good ones will always do well.

[DodgyAgent]

As for competing in a global economy then fine, lets get rid of the NHS, 90% of the rest of government and the public services, let 70% of the population live on <$1 a day and 50% be illiterate, lets have the city pavements so packed with sleeping bodies at night you cannot walk on them, lets have children making fine shirts I can buy for $2, food and 10% of what it costs here and I'll undercut an Indian anyday. Because, to Benn0 and the like, THAT is what being a 'ragged trousered philanthropist' is going to bring to this country and for my sins I will probably be OK but there are MILLIONS that won't.

Bone in the nose stuff bfg. How much did you make creating the technology that enhanced globalisation?
The challenge is not to business, because business will adapt change and move, the challenge is to government and their costly wastefulness and inefficiency.
How are governments going to encourage investment in the future? how are they going to persuade businesses to stay here? They wont be able to do it with protectionism so they will have to make the UK a better place to live (reduce crime) and to stop pushing up labour costs by wasteful taxation and silly employment laws.

Whilst I wholeheartedly support the stopping of Indians coming here to work in IT on low wages (we do after all have a large population of IT workers in Eastern Europe), I also support the offshoring concept.

[Bitbucket]

I wish I knew what you were talking about. Some Windows is indeed low grade but the term Windows encompasses a lot of technologies. Similarly in telecoms many jobs I see go to Indians require considerable skill. And many Indians communicate very well.

I don't understand the relevance of the last paragraph. If you are suggesting that Indians are mumbling code monkeys, then you are misguided.

At present Indians outsource to us. But they are now starting to produce in India. Maybe we will become mainly an employer of low wage Eastern Europeans, an exporter of financial services and a tourism site. If banking goes to India, which I doubt, we are stuffed.

What I am saying is that immediately you advertise the job as a Windows based one then its considered more commodity. Windows is available everywhere and so are the development environments like C , anyone in the world who has a laptop and the time and patience to sit down and learn has these facilities available , and pirate copying has made this more accessable.

Its not hard for someone who has some resonable communication skills then to apply for such positions.

Im not saying that its a low skill job at all , it may require more skills than a mainframe job of the same type , but less people will have had access to a mainframe so they will be in a more niche market.

I am not convinced that skilled foreigners are also rushing to go to the UK , there are better options in other countries.

I have not suggested anything about Indians being bad communicators , my previous post says regardless of nationality , this is a global market and its not just Indians that are in this market .

I am still on a contract at 420 quid a day , and if you read this post http://www.contractoruk.com/news/002685.html then you will see that there are many contractors on more than me.

I have herd all the scaremongering over many years but I still get a good wage so why havent all these low cost foreigners taken my job ? In fact the agent did tell me when I was asking for this rate that rates were dropping because of outsourcing etc. etc. , and I then asked him why he was bothering to ring me back if that was the case.

If you have a good niche skill then stick out for your rate , if you are in a more commodity type market then I agree rates will be depresssed but dont get into a price war with low cost foreign workers nobody is going to win that.

[bfg]

Competition

As for competing in a global economy then fine, lets get rid of the NHS, 90% of the rest of government and the public services, let 70% of the population live on <$1 a day and 50% be illiterate, lets have the city pavements so packed with sleeping bodies at night you cannot walk on them, lets have children making fine shirts I can buy for $2, food and 10% of what it costs here and I'll undercut an Indian anyday. Because, to Benn0 and the like, THAT is what being a 'ragged trousered philanthropist' is going to bring to this country and for my sins I will probably be OK but there are MILLIONS that won't.

[Fungus]

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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spelt

[Fungus]

I understand what you are saying but Telecoms and Windows are both commodity items , so it does not suprise me that they both together command such a low fee.

In the tailored end of the market , cost is not an issue .

If I am a PM and I am looking to fill a position for a guy in a small team then I will be looking for some guarantees , like a personal reference from someone I trust , the impression I get from the contractor with regards to their CV , their communication skills and their technical ability. They may also have skills in other areas like finance , legal issues or mechanics.

I will not take some mumbling coding monkey that just so happens to put all the right buzz words on his badly spelt CV regardless of his nationality or his cost.

I wish I knew what you were talking about. Some Windows is indeed low grade but the term Windows encompasses a lot of technologies. Similarly in telecoms many jobs I see go to Indians require considerable skill. And many Indians communicate very well.

I don't understand the relevance of the last paragraph. If you are suggesting that Indians are mumbling code monkeys, then you are misguided.

At present Indians outsource to us. But they are now starting to produce in India. Maybe we will become mainly an employer of low wage Eastern Europeans, an exporter of financial services and a tourism site. If banking goes to India, which I doubt, we are stuffed.

[Tex]

I will not take some mumbling coding monkey that just so happens to put all the right buzz words on his badly spelt CV regardless of his nationality or his cost.

spelled

[DimPrawn]

That's great but not how 99% of large UK businesses operate. There cost is the only deciding factor.

Therefore although there will be a tiny pool of clients looking for the best at any price, the talent pool from all the job losses mean rates will tumble and even the best will be on minimum wage.

Enjoy.

[Bitbucket]

Which is why Indian contractors come to the UK and undercut UK ones. And if you think I am making this up, I'm not. I have first hand experience of two large UK companies in the telecoms field.

I was shocked recently when looking at permie salaries to see that £25 to £30 for C++ Windows developers is commonplace. Or at least that's what the adverts offer. That's the same as 8 years ago when I startd contracting.

I understand what you are saying but Telecoms and Windows are both commodity items , so it does not suprise me that they both together command such a low fee.

In the tailored end of the market , cost is not an issue .

If I am a PM and I am looking to fill a position for a guy in a small team then I will be looking for some guarantees , like a personal reference from someone I trust , the impression I get from the contractor with regards to their CV , their communication skills and their technical ability. They may also have skills in other areas like finance , legal issues or mechanics.

I will not take some mumbling coding monkey that just so happens to put all the right buzz words on his badly spelt CV regardless of his nationality or his cost.

[threaded]

I agree that small bespoke houses will survive, but that wont employ anywhere near the numbers in the business now.

They won't need to either.

[The Lone Gunman]

Which is why Indian contractors come to the UK and undercut UK ones. And if you think I am making this up, I'm not. I have first hand experience of two large UK companies in the telecoms field.

I was shocked recently when looking at permie salaries to see that £25 to £30 for C++ Windows developers is commonplace. Or at least that's what the adverts offer. That's the same as 8 years ago when I startd contracting.

8 years ago C++ was still rare. Since then every graduate and his brother has learned it so it is quite a common language these days.
Also the market has been depressed for a number of years. Investment in product development has never recovered from the millenium, the dot coms bubble and 9/11. When it does it will no longer be in the UK.
I agree that small bespoke houses will survive, but that wont employ anywhere near the numbers in the business now.

[Fungus]

Software is not like a washing machine , its a far more complex product and more like a suit there will always be people who want a tailor fitted one and not one off the peg.

As far as I am concerned , any company has the right to look for the cheepest way of producing their product , but I believe that there will always be a market for people in the UK to write and develop software , albeit a smaller and more finely tuned set of individuals who wont be restricted by big company mentality.

Which is why Indian contractors come to the UK and undercut UK ones. And if you think I am making this up, I'm not. I have first hand experience of two large UK companies in the telecoms field.

I was shocked recently when looking at permie salaries to see that £25 to £30 for C++ Windows developers is commonplace. Or at least that's what the adverts offer. That's the same as 8 years ago when I startd contracting.

[Bitbucket]

Commodity items will always be built by low wage countries , even the once low wage countries that were regarded as hot spots for industry to build factories are now competing with other countries that can make things cheeper , cant wait until China start producing their own version of Windows, or Whindohs.

It seems like there is a never ending spiral of countries getting their foot on the industrial ladder which employs their population and brings contentment by giving them a spendable income ,there are actually people happy to be speeding around in the latest model from Proton , and the only thing they have to do to make this happen is tell these industries how cheep their labour is.

Its no suprise that software which is a highly portable product becoming a commodity item , and not just for product support , manufacture of the product is also being seen as a comodity item as well

That leaves the guys and gals in higher wage countries like our developing and supporting one offs and custom products where its not viable to go abroad due to the costs involved in interfacing to that commodity environment , like someone on here has said , they will still be fronted by big companies that will want large fees , the low wage gains will not be passed on to everyone , its just the big spenders who will be discounted.

But I like that , and I am happy not to be developing or supporting some commodity item like the next release of Windows , or Oracle v 29 or to be getting involved with companies like EDS who are just trying to pass on a factory made product at a custom price.

Software is not like a washing machine , its a far more complex product and more like a suit there will always be people who want a tailor fitted one and not one off the peg.

As far as I am concerned , any company has the right to look for the cheepest way of producing their product , but I believe that there will always be a market for people in the UK to write and develop software , albeit a smaller and more finely tuned set of individuals who wont be restricted by big company mentality.

[DimPrawn]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5057054.stm

Mobile phone maker Motorola has announced plans to build a $100m (£53.8m) factory in India.
The US firm said work would shortly begin on the plant, near the southern Indian city of Madras (Chennai).

The move, by the world's second-biggest handset maker, follows plans by larger rival Nokia to build a $150m manufacturing site in the country.

Mobile phone use is growing rapidly in India, where about 100 million people currently own a phone handset.

"India is a vitally important market for Motorola," said Motorola's executive vice president Ron Garriques.

The company said it planned to have the Indian factory operational by next year.