Reply to: Mandela - Saint or Sinner?

[BrilloPad]

It's a matter of opinion though. The catholics of Northern Ireland would say they were oppressed by those nasty British, and were never given the change to participate in democracy, at least not on the central question of the sovreignty of Northern Ireland, so does that mean they're not terrorists? Al Queda would certainly have a similar viewpoint. Anybody willing to kill random people to effect a change in the status quo is a terrorist, even if subsequently their objectives become morally acceptable.

Agree Strongly. Furthermore as a member of fathers4justice I believe I am oppressed by the family court system and I am justified in any retribution I deem suitable on those involved.

[DodgyAgent]

I think FW de Klerk should thank Mandela for still alive. Remember what happened to Gadaffi after he thrown out of power. Apartheid rule for natives in SA was worst than that of Gadaffi.

What an extraordinary distortion of moral equivalence

[sunnysan]

Terrorism

One guys rebel is always anothers freedom fighter - but I can't seriously see how anyone can say a man fighting against apartheid is a terrorist... Maybe I need educating though.

I think defining terrorism shouldnt be by cause but by action. Blowing up a tube in London to further the agenda of Al Qaeda is terrorism as well as a guy blowing up a bar full of off duty policeman even though it could be argued that policeman are legitimate military targets. Maybe even blowing up a village full of people with a drone owing to intelligence that there may be a military target there could be called terrorism too.

If innocent people are killed and maimed in order for an ideal to be achieved, IMHO its terrorism, regardless of the nobility of the ideal.

[VectraMan]

One guys rebel is always anothers freedom fighter - but I can't seriously see how anyone can say a man fighting against apartheid is a terrorist... Maybe I need educating though.

It's a matter of opinion though. The catholics of Northern Ireland would say they were oppressed by those nasty British, and were never given the change to participate in democracy, at least not on the central question of the sovreignty of Northern Ireland, so does that mean they're not terrorists? Al Queda would certainly have a similar viewpoint. Anybody willing to kill random people to effect a change in the status quo is a terrorist, even if subsequently their objectives become morally acceptable.

[sunnysan]

Terrorist

More importantly, how would we feel about Mandela before he became a world leader and a figure that stands for all that is good and decent.

Its easy *now* to say what a great man he is, but I'm wondering how many of us would still hold Mandela in high regard whilst he was politically active and fighting for the cause, ie he was a "rebel"?

Lets not forget he was imprisoned for "terrorist activities" so why is he now considered a great man?

After all, the CIA did help to track him down tipped him off to the SA authorities.

Its Africa, the difference between a freedom fighter or a terrorist or a rebel is only relevant in the newspapers.

I think its important to remember that negotiations for his release where started quite a while before he was actually released.


The "terrorist activities" he was imprisoned for would not have been committed had South Africa had a representative government.


Its generally an open secret that the CIA worked covertly with the South African government at the time as their ambitions where aligned IE Stop the spread of Communism

Of course its easy to say he was a great man or a flawed man but its clear he was instrumental in the "relativly" peaceful transition from white to black power.

As an alternative analogy, Churchill was a great statesman who led Britain through the dark times of the second world war, or he was a firebrand alcoholic, who screwed the Poles over, trusted Stalin too much and was instrumental in allowing Eastern Europe to endure a 50 years of communist suppression.

Maybe he was just a figurehead, but he was an influential figurehead, and one of the only men at the time which had the political influence among the people of South Africa to prevent a bloodbath. IMHO anyway

[Scoobos]

More importantly, how would we feel about Mandela before he became a world leader and a figure that stands for all that is good and decent.

Its easy *now* to say what a great man he is, but I'm wondering how many of us would still hold Mandela in high regard whilst he was politically active and fighting for the cause, ie he was a "rebel"?

Lets not forget he was imprisoned for "terrorist activities" so why is he now considered a great man?

After all, the CIA did help to track him down tipped him off to the SA authorities.

Personally I think in todays world we need more people willing to fight and die for a cause, rather than conform, buy the next marketed "need" and blame everything on everyone else.

One guys rebel is always anothers freedom fighter - but I can't seriously see how anyone can say a man fighting against apartheid is a terrorist... Maybe I need educating though.

Bringing the US and the CIA into it as justification that he's a terrorist doesnt really help the cause to me. Both of those institutions are worried with one thing and one thing only and thats the economic interests of the US . Back then it was still a fundamentally racist country - its moved on a little now - its just fundamentally homophobic and a moderately racist.

[Darren_Test]

I'm sure most terrorists would say the same of their cause.

Does Mandella himself really deserve any credit for the end of Apertheid? His name became a symbol for sure, but that doesn't mean he himself really did anything. He was in jail after all.

Well said..!
So the credit for SA freedom should go to Margaret Thatcher & British Govt who directly & indirectly helped & benefited from apartheid rule for decades..! You must be joking.! Mandela is as great as Gandhi though his path was bit different.

I hope you will not ask what Gandhi did..? Please refer history books to see who/what started end of British Empire..!

[BankingContractor]

More importantly, how would we feel about Mandela before he became a world leader and a figure that stands for all that is good and decent.

Its easy *now* to say what a great man he is, but I'm wondering how many of us would still hold Mandela in high regard whilst he was politically active and fighting for the cause, ie he was a "rebel"?

Lets not forget he was imprisoned for "terrorist activities" so why is he now considered a great man?

After all, the CIA did help to track him down tipped him off to the SA authorities.

[Scoobos]

My 2 cents - A great guy, his influence was the catalyst for a great change. Although, based on my limited interactions with white South Africans, I wonder how stable the new SA actually is.

[VectraMan]

Yep, end justified means, and the means was justified because there was no democratic process in which to be heard.

I'm sure most terrorists would say the same of their cause.

Does Mandella himself really deserve any credit for the end of Apertheid? His name became a symbol for sure, but that doesn't mean he himself really did anything. He was in jail after all.

[Darren_Test]

I think FW de Klerk should thank Mandela for still alive. Remember what happened to Gadaffi after he thrown out of power. Apartheid rule for natives in SA was worst than that of Gadaffi.

[sunnysan]

Mandela

Mandela was a man and not a saint, but he was fundamentally a good man with fair, reasonable and unflinching principles in what he wanted he wanted to achieve, which I am sure everybody present would say is a characteristic sorely lacking in todays politics

A political career spanning decades a man is bound to make a few mistakes, and some bad decisions, but consider the fact that he was incarcerated and his political party having no legitamacy, had to operate as a so called terrorist organization, I believe in difficult circumstances he showed remarkable restraint.

IMH and unlearned opinion, if it was not for him, the transition of power in South Africa would have been a bloodbath of epidemic proportions and he gave the country a chance to achieve the goal of being the first multiracial democracy in South Africa

Now the rant....

After this brilliant opportunity the African National Congress has changed from a liberation organization to a party of gangsters and robber barons, who are still trading on the old status of the ANC but who are corrupting and polluting the countries politics for their own gain and have forgotten, if the ever remembered what the original principles of the ANC where.

The poor uneducated masses in the country who voted with hope for the ANC have been abandoned to fester in a world of raw sewage in the street and rampant crime, with a pathetic failure to deliver public services resulting in the opinion in certain quarters that public services where better during apartheid.

The politicians still play the weary race card to hide their own incompetence, while the party itself is unwilling or unable to control its vitriolic youth leaders who are calling for land restitution and nationalization, creating an unstable environment for investment.

The police and private security organizations becoming a law unto themselves with more and more reports surfacing of rampant corruption and abuse in its ranks.

The ANC does very little about the rampant abuse and xenophobia in South Africas detention centers and on the street. The people getting raped and killed are people from the same countries who harboured and granted political asylum for ANC "freedom fighters" and risked the wrath and retribution of the best bush fighters and military units in Africa for a shared ideal (And probably some money too :-))


South Africa will fester with crime and corruption and become just another failed African state, if not for men , albeit imperfect at times, like Mandela.

[mudskipper]

Yep, end justified means, and the means was justified because there was no democratic process in which to be heard.

[Zippy]

Selective sound byte reporting:

In the same speech he referred to Mandela as an opponent that " had integrity, was a good communicator, charming and someone of stature who was able to keep the ANC unified through the most difficult times."

Mandela for me is a saint - a case of the end justified the means if ever there was one imho.

WHS.
I think de Klerk also deserves credit for doing what needed to be done.

[oracleslave]

Selective sound byte reporting:

In the same speech he referred to Mandela as an opponent that " had integrity, was a good communicator, charming and someone of stature who was able to keep the ANC unified through the most difficult times."

Mandela for me is a saint - a case of the end justified the means if ever there was one imho.