Reply to: Was it Labour Meltdown?

[AlfredJPruffock]

That's the perception Alf. Truth is, it does not take a very clever man to increase taxes, generate reams of ill-defined legislation, and increase borrowing. Essentially that is all Brown has done.

Look ten years hence, when today's "middle England" realise that:

* national and personal debts will be even bigger but have to be paid back

* their private and company pensions are only half what they would have got up until 1997

* because of means testing they shouldn't have bothered to save anything at all as the feckless get better state pensions than them

* nobody understands the most complex tax system in the world, administered by myriad, necessarily-complex systems that do not work properly

Brown has taxed and borrowed simply to stand still, which is his definition of "a stable economy".

Aye W

I dont doubt these valid points you have made, yet a politicians concerns are not what the electorate may think of their work in ten years, which is a pity, but their chances of currently retaining power and Browns policies, like it or not, have won the backing of the electorate.

A good example of the above realpolitic is that precious little seems to be done to address global warming as this will be viewed as an issue for some other politician down the line.

BTW Im not Middle England as such but from obsolete working class heavy industrial type West of Scotland turned happy go lucky contractor.

[AlfredJPruffock]

That's a good point.

The only criteria of "successful government" (from a governments perspective) is gaining and holding onto power. Nothing else matters.

If it takes a few million illegals, a few war crimes, a lot of taxes and control of the media, then so be it.

HTH.

Tone

Aye DP

You got it ...You Got It !!!

BTW arent you the same DP who used to work with or for MS, I recall that your postings were mainly technical in their nature or at least LINUX v Microsoft topics,if so has this board perhaps radicalised your opinion in a political sense ?

Be that as it may, you may find the following of interest in terms of Statesmanship ...

It is this focus on practical success by any means, even at the expense of traditional moral values, that earned Machiavelli's scheme a reputation for ruthlessness, deception, and cruelty.



Full link is here ...

http://www.philosophypages.com/ph/macv.htm

Extract ...

Machiavelli originally wrote Principe (The Prince) (1513) in hopes of securing the favor of the ruling Medici family, and he deliberately made its claims provocative.

The Prince is an intensely practical guide to the exercise of raw political power over a Renaissance principality. Allowing for the unpredictable influence of fortune, Machiavelli argued that it is primarily the character or vitality or skill of the individual leader that determines the success of any state.

The book surveys various bold means of acquiring and maintaining the principality and evaluates each of them solely by reference to its likelihood of augmenting the glory of the prince while serving the public interest.

It is this focus on practical success by any means, even at the expense of traditional moral values, that earned Machiavelli's scheme a reputation for ruthlessness, deception, and cruelty.

[Lucifer Box]

Spot on, DP. Gordon Brown has carried out his brief perfectly, and with great cunning and inventiveness.

[DimPrawn]

That's a good point.

The only criteria of "successful government" (from a governments perspective) is gaining and holding onto power. Nothing else matters.

If it takes a few million illegals, a few war crimes, a lot of taxes and control of the media, then so be it.

HTH.

Tone

[Lucifer Box]

That's the perception Alf. Truth is, it does not take a very clever man to increase taxes, generate reams of ill-defined legislation, and increase borrowing. Essentially that is all Brown has done.

True, but it does take a clever man to do it in such a way that the mass of the population either:

a) Don't notice, or
b) Don't care, or
c) Positively welcome it as "a good thing".

He is very, very clever, within the parameters of what was required of him as a Labour Chancellor tasked with securing re-election for the party, as distinct from being clever on behalf of the long-term benefit of the country.

[wendigo100]

That's the perception Alf. Truth is, it does not take a very clever man to increase taxes, generate reams of ill-defined legislation, and increase borrowing. Essentially that is all Brown has done.

Look ten years hence, when today's "middle England" realise that:

* national and personal debts will be even bigger but have to be paid back

* their private and company pensions are only half what they would have got up until 1997

* because of means testing they shouldn't have bothered to save anything at all as the feckless get better state pensions than them

* nobody understands the most complex tax system in the world, administered by myriad, necessarily-complex systems that do not work properly

Brown has taxed and borrowed simply to stand still, which is his definition of "a stable economy".

[AlfredJPruffock]

"Mr Brown remains a competent and shrewd politician". Huh? Is he really? Whatever his competence, he's still a to55er. How can someone like him spout forth about how SME's are the growth engine of this country, and yet he's looking at closing IR35 loopholes. Where's the support Gordo? If he becomes PM, I will feel so sorry for the next Chancellor: he/she will be nothing more than Gordo's puppet, since he's been at Treasury for so long. And he's so smug, gawd I hate him ...I'm off to the pond to cool down.

I come not to praise New Labour
But to bury them


As readers of this board will vouch I am probaby one of the most vocal critics of New Labour.

However it would be churlish of me not to credit Brown for his overall competence as Chancellor.

The management of the economy has been Labours downfall more than once before, yet Brown has proved himself more than capable in this respect .

I would venture that had Brown not been Chancellor Labour would not have held power more than one term.

[Swamp Thing]

"Mr Brown remains a competent and shrewd politician". Huh? Is he really? Whatever his competence, he's still a to55er. How can someone like him spout forth about how SME's are the growth engine of this country, and yet he's looking at closing IR35 loopholes. Where's the support Gordo? If he becomes PM, I will feel so sorry for the next Chancellor: he/she will be nothing more than Gordo's puppet, since he's been at Treasury for so long. And he's so smug, gawd I hate him ...I'm off to the pond to cool down.

[AlfredJPruffock]

No offence but why should I prop up the Scottish property market by subsidising public sector leeches and civil servant parasites?

Simply because it profits my good self , and for no other reason DP.

[DimPrawn]

No offence but why should I prop up the Scottish property market by subsidising public sector leeches and civil servant parasites?

[AlfredJPruffock]

Its a great day for all of us who have suffered the humiliation of the New Labour Snake for too long.

That said I expect the departure of Mr Blair and the introduction of Mr Brown may reverse Labours fortunes dramatically, Mr Blair has shown himself to be reckless and vainglorious, Mr Brown remains a competent and shrewd politician, Labour can reverse these setbacks under his leadership.

Then again should the Conservatives win the next election I shall have to sell the Pruffock Estate in Hamilton, as an absentee Landlord over the past few years I have noted that most of the house price growth in Scotland has been founded on the back of increased public spending rather than the private sector .

That public spending spree will be pulled by the Conservatives .

I expect to see Estate prices in Scotland plunging dramatically as the economy declines North of the Border.

Those in the South will continue to prosper.

[NoddY]

I think a better solution would be to add another tier of government. Like a regional government. That way we could have:

The parish council
The district council
The county council
The government office for the regions
The regional government (my idea!)
And Central Government (me!)

We could have elections every 24 hours to empower and enable citizens and have it all gone via the Internet!

Whatd'ya think Tone?

Love,
John P.

[wendigo100]

Is it possible that since all these councils are now Conservative, central gov (aka New Lie) will put pressure on local authorities, add more red tape, decrease central funding and generally feck em up to make themselves look good?

They already do. Bit busy or I'd find a link.

[DimPrawn]

Is it possible that since all these councils are now Conservative, central gov (aka New Lie) will put pressure on local authorities, add more red tape, decrease central funding and generally feck em up to make themselves look good?

[wendigo100]

Still 13 contested councils to declare.

Tories gain 250 councillor seats, Labour lose 254
Tories gain 12 councils, Labour lose 18

Tories now have 1568 councillors to Labour's 1064
Tories now have 67 councils to Labour's 24

The projected vote share if the polls were held nationwide shows the Tories on 40%, Lib Dems 27% and Labour 26%.

Update with 10 of the 176 contested councils still to declare:

Tories gain 260 councillor seats, Labour lose 262
Tories gain 11 councils, Labour lose 18

Tories now have 1598 councillors to Labour's 1067
Tories now have 68 councils to Labour's 25

Could Labour losses hit the big 300?