Reply to: European politicians plot to block UK veto on 'Tobin tax'

[snaw]

Yes.



Prices increased at much higher rate than consumption which started dropping even before 2008 - if you look at the chart consumption is at level of early 90s when price of oil was $15 per barrel, where as price now is $100.

Rising consumption vs stagnant production (Falling on a per capita basis for sure - more people in the world these days AtW). Iraq wars, 9/11, weak US dollar, oil being harder to get so more expensive to produce, OPEC supply limitations (They stopped being able to control it through excess production in the mid 2000's).

Basic supply and demand type tulip AtW, influenced by world geopolitical events. It's not terribly complicated.

They're all documented reasons for oil price rises, go do some google. Still yet to see you back up your assertions that oil has risen over this period due to High Frequency Trading. That's because you can't.

Another AtW classic lesson in soviet educated economics.

[AtW]

So the world isn't consuming more oil, driven primarily by emerging markets, is this your assertion now?

Yes.



Prices increased at much higher rate than consumption which started dropping even before 2008 - if you look at the chart consumption is at level of early 90s when price of oil was $15 per barrel, where as price now is $100.

[snaw]

Which part of emerging market and increased demands for limited resources is reflected in actual oil price chart above? The only explanation of such spikes is speculative activity.

Am I really having to explain this tulip to you?

So the world isn't consuming more oil, driven primarily by emerging markets, is this your assertion now?

Go look up China (2/5 of global rise in demand in the last 10 years), India, Brazil etceteras consumption figures for the last 10 years. Go check out oil production per capita, peaked about 20 years ago ... ffs.

Is that the fault of HFT as well? All that high speed computer gear gobbling up tonnes of energy to shave some microseconds off their transaction time ...

[AtW]

Got nowt to do with the rise of emerging markets and increased demands for limited resources (commodities) then

Which part of emerging market and increased demands for limited resources is reflected in actual oil price chart above? The only explanation of such spikes is speculative activity.

[snaw]

Chart of oil price below



Can you explain to me how exactly your emerging markets got price of oil to $150, then down to $30 and then back to $120 and now it is going back down again?

HFT is just an extreme example of where general speculation moved into - not content with f***ing people over once in a while they want to do that frequently.

Instead of investing money to get cure for cancer or new space engines we have situation where hot money grow bubbles that tax people pockets massively via increased prices.

All this printed money could go into commodities to make everyones lifes more expensive, or HFT of whatever causes volatility to make money out of pockets of genuine investors OR maybe if they could not do that they'd have to invest into companies that create jobs and products that are actually useful.

Sorry, where's the proof oil prices going up is the fault of HFT in that chart?

The oil price historically was comparatively low until the 1973 oil crisis and the 1979 energy crisis when it increased more than tenfold during that six year timeframe. Even though the oil price dropped significantly in the following years, it has never come back to the previous levels. After almost fifteen years of relative stability, the oil price began to increase again during the 2000s until it hit historical heights of $143 per barrel (2007 inflation adjusted dollars) on 30 June 2008.[119] As these prices were well above those that caused the 1973 and 1979 energy crises, they have contributed to fears of an economic recession similar to that of the early 1980s.[12] These fears were not without a basis, since the high oil prices began having an effect on the economies, as, for example, indicated by gasoline consumption drop of 0.5% in the first two months of 2008 in the United States.[120] compared to a drop of .4% total in 2007.[121]
It is agreed that the main reason for the price spike in 2005-2008 was strong demand pressure. For example, global consumption of oil rose from 30 billion barrels (4.8×109 m3) in 2004 to 31 billion in 2005. The consumption rates were far above new discoveries in the period, which had fallen to only eight billion barrels of new oil reserves in new accumulations in 2004.[122]
Oil price increases were partially fueled by reports that petroleum production is at[4][5][6] or near full capacity.[8][123][124] In June 2005, OPEC admitted that they would 'struggle' to pump enough oil to meet pricing pressures for the fourth quarter of that year.[125] The decline in the U.S. dollar against other significant currencies from 2007 to 2008 is also cited as a significant reason for the oil price increases,[126] as the dollar lost approximately 14% of its value against the Euro from May 2007 to May 2008.
Besides supply and demand pressures, at times security related factors may have contributed to increases in prices,[124] including the War on Terror, missile launches in North Korea,[127] the Crisis between Israel and Lebanon,[128] nuclear brinkmanship between the U.S. and Iran,[129] and reports from the U.S. Department of Energy and others showing a decline in petroleum reserves.[130]

[Churchill]

Is the answer Cowabunga?

[Arturo Bassick]

That was a clue in Sunday's Times crossword!

Is the answer Cowabunga?

[Churchill]

where hot money grow bubbles that tax people pockets massively via increased prices.

That was a clue in Sunday's Times crossword!

[AtW]

Bit of a tenous link AtW. HFT is to blame higher commodity prices ... Got nowt to do with the rise of emerging markets and increased demands for limited resources (commodities) then ...

Chart of oil price below



Can you explain to me how exactly your emerging markets got price of oil to $150, then down to $30 and then back to $120 and now it is going back down again?

HFT is just an extreme example of where general speculation moved into - not content with f***ing people over once in a while they want to do that frequently.

Instead of investing money to get cure for cancer or new space engines we have situation where hot money grow bubbles that tax people pockets massively via increased prices.

All this printed money could go into commodities to make everyones lifes more expensive, or HFT of whatever causes volatility to make money out of pockets of genuine investors OR maybe if they could not do that they'd have to invest into companies that create jobs and products that are actually useful.

[snaw]

Yes you put a few grand in your pocket but on the other hand market speculators took far more from it thanks to increased prices of all commodities.

Bit of a tenous link AtW. HFT is to blame higher commodity prices ... Got nowt to do with the rise of emerging markets and increased demands for limited resources (commodities) then ... you really do live in a simple world, full of good guys (Commies) and bad guys (Capitalist pigs).

They don't hang around long enough to increase prices over the long term, they're in and out in a flash - hence the description 'high frequency'.

[AtW]

On the other hand HFT trading has put a few 000's in my bank account in times gone by, so not complaining.

Yes you put a few grand in your pocket but on the other hand market speculators took far more from it thanks to increased prices of all commodities.

[snaw]

Somehow I thought you'd be bigger!

What, than you? That can't be a common occurrence, shirley.

[Churchill]

You've got your POM's mixed up there mate, it's you lot that spend a lifetime whinging about stuff

Somehow I thought you'd be bigger!

[snaw]

I thought you were a Scot!

You've got your POM's mixed up there mate, it's you lot that spend a lifetime whinging about stuff

[Churchill]

Nope, reread it and you've lost me there. I indeed must be stupid.

Interesting that's the point you choose to quote, for me it was a throw away line, not meant to be taken too seriously. On the other hand HFT trading has put a few 000's in my bank account in times gone by, so not complaining.

I thought you were a Scot!?!