Reply to: Dodgy Contract or is it permanent???

[Not So Wise]

I was told by the agency that sold me the job that I would be a permanent member of staff for them and that even if the role I was working in which is a project finished they would place me in another project

Having a bit of problem understanding your problem as you seem to be mixing terminology here

The quoted bit above would apply to a consultancy or a temp agency not a "contractor agency"

A contractor agency would not be hireing you as permanent member of staff, rather "subcontracting" the work to a contractor Ltd

A consultancy on the other hand could be either hireing you as a permie or subcontracting the work to you as a contractor.

If they have hired you a permie in theory they should be paying you regardless of the current project ending or them finding another another place to put you (thus you can end up getting paid for doing nothing).

Of course there are limitations to this and if such a senario went on for to long you might find yourself being made "redundant"

The more i read down definatly sounds like you are working for a consultancy (especially the bit about how much chargeing the client vs what you get paid as they have larger overheads than a agency, you never know how many people they might be paying to do nothing)

So what you need to determine is are you a contractor to the consultancy or an employee. For that you need to look at the contract you signed. Look especially for terms like "XX shall not be deemed an employee of YY" also even if you are an employee check for notice periods and such.

[Denny]

Yeah I think. Have you ever heard of this? I havent! And didnt know this when I first took on the role.

It seems to me that you could be a sub-contractor representing the contracting company on site for their own end-client. Rather like working a consultancy, like Accenture as a bod on a client site only this time you're not working as a permanent employee for them.

If you are working on the end-client site for two years, then you are not an employee under these arrangements for the first year. If you stay for longer than a year without any contract renewals inbetween you could be entitled to treat the end-client as your own employer if you need to take them to an industrial tribunal for any reason for unfair dismissal. Most end-clients would be careful to avoid making that mistake by hiring you for for over a year in one go. If the end-client is paying you direct under a fixed term contract agreement for two years from the outset via a PAYE system then you are the end-client's employee not the contracting company's employee who would then effectively be acting as an employment 'agency.' You would not be able to employ yourself as a freelancer or go limited as an owner managed business under these circumstances. If you are on site for two years but are being paid directly by the employment business (the business that gave you the work) via PAYE then you effectively the employment business' employee - just like a high street temp - but you would still have the same rights as a normal permenant employee on a client site if you were there for more than 1 year and were dismissed unfairly.

I hope this clears the matter up (if I've understood it correctly).

[zathras]

Speak to the DTI

If I understand you properly then you seem to have a contractor position when you were told it was a perm position.

The first thing is that it still might be a permenent position. I don't think they have done anything illegal if they don't have anything in your geographical area. One of the reasons I turned down a perm role with a big consultancy was because I might have to work away from home. No way was I going to do that without the compensation of a contractor rate!

Also the charge out rate. So what. As a permy what your employer charges really is immaterial. Many of the consultancies charge out at £1000 even if they are only paying £300 to the worker. If that is what the customer is willing to pay then so be it.

However to get to the central question. If you think they placed you in a contract role but you thought it was perm there are a number of things here.

After 6 months you will have qualified for 2 weeks paid holiday. You must be getting a salary. You are also due SSP and all the other gubbings of a perm resource.

If they placed you in a contract then your first port of call should be the DTI. The opt out of the agency regulations is immaterial here. The opt out is only valid for incorporated workers if you thought this was perm there would be no need to have a limited company which are used to avoid creating an employment situation under s134 of the ICTA 1988.

If they sold you a contract role as a perm role they are still due to pay those things you get in a perm role.

[tim123]

Ok but that is my question now what is the "rights of a permie" vs a contract.

Either way, the rights that you have are the ones in the contract.

If you have a contract job, the contract will say that you will be paid for hours worked and no more (though they may do some banking of holiday pay for you). You will also get paid some period of time after submitting timesheets/invoice. The contract 'may' hold you to a fixed term. There may be a term that says that the other party doesn't have to pay you if X happens.

If you have a permi position, you will get proper sick pay (though this could be limited to X days), holiday pay etc. You will also be paid to a fixed schedual - the last day of the month or sooner, but never later, whether you have submitted timesheets or not. You must have a notice period in an employment contract and it would be very unusual for it not to be equitable (and probably unenforcable if it is in the employers favour), but it could be for three months. There can be no clauses at all in the contract (except for the sickness scheme) allowing the employer to decide not to pay you for any reason whatsoever, he must always pay you for the contractual period (ie. up to the expiry of a notice period) even if there is no work for you.

You have a few extra statutory rights as a permi (grievance procedure etc)but these will often not be specified in the contract and they don't mean a bean until something goes wrong. In theory, a perm position will pay redundo if the job ends, but the statutory payment for less than two years is SFA and the statutory payment for longer than this is a packet of chocolate money.

You need to decide what type of contract you have, and if you are not happy with it give notice and see what happens

tim

[Commscnut]

Who's the agency. Just so all of us newbies can avoid them like the plague.

[eternalnomad]

Ok but that is my question now what is the "rights of a permie" vs a contract. If the project packs up before my 6 months of being here they only have to give me a weeks notice and the project could end this afternoon without my ever knowing until tomorrow and they are like you have a week. And then even after my 6 month I will only have a month which I believe is the same an a permie job unless you have been there more than 2 years. I mean that is why I am saying no security and no money?? Can this be right? I have been told by this agency and in my contract that I am a permie employee over and over but I AM NOT SURELY and I can only see this as a miss sold job -- yes no??

Molie,

what does it say in your contract of employment (you know, that piece of paper you signed when you took the job) about :-

notice periods
termination of employment
location of work
redundancy
sick pay

On the face of it I would say you have been somewhat "stitched up".....but if you have a contract of employment with good terms with regards to sick pay then read my previous post about "bad backs"

[threaded]

Yes, sounds normal.

[molie]

Permie vs Contract

fair point expat - but its the "Dodgy Agency Ltd" that is taking double rate not "Legit Software House Ltd"

In my permie days,the consultancy I worked for (truly as a permie) were charging me out at at least twice per day what I was earning, however this was none of my concern as I was a permie with the rights of a permie.

Ok but that is my question now what is the "rights of a permie" vs a contract. If the project packs up before my 6 months of being here they only have to give me a weeks notice and the project could end this afternoon without my ever knowing until tomorrow and they are like you have a week. And then even after my 6 month I will only have a month which I believe is the same an a permie job unless you have been there more than 2 years. I mean that is why I am saying no security and no money?? Can this be right? I have been told by this agency and in my contract that I am a permie employee over and over but I AM NOT SURELY and I can only see this as a miss sold job -- yes no??

[eternalnomad]

My advice is to visit the doctors, claim some crap about a "bad back" - get him/her to give you a sick note for a month or two.

Then sit at home watching Trisha whilst on FULL PAY (as a permie you are of-course going to get fullpay for a month or two cos thats what your contract of emloyment say ....right ?)

Lets see if they continue to pay you whilst on sick !!!

In the meantime I would recommend getting a real permie job with the benefits or a real contract without the benefits (but potentially a better financial deal)

[molie]

Yeah

Not sure I understand!
Are you permy but contracted to a client site by your employer?

Yeah I think. Have you ever heard of this? I havent! And didnt know this when I first took on the role.

[swamp]

My advise is to get your coat and leave the office without saying a word. Then go home and get another job. Perhaps crack a beer and watch a bit of daytime TV like Trisha (it's been a while) and watch your mobile go to answerphone while your 'employer' tries to find out WTF you've gone...

[molie]

Yes took it as permanent

Did you take this on the basis that it was a "permanent" job? Would you be ok with the remuneration if it were a "permanent" job? Is it in fact a "permanent" job, i.e. what does your contract say?

If it says it's a contract, but it pays permie rates, but you took it on because you believed something that an agent told you in order to get you to take it, well ......

Yes I did take the role on as permanent as we have been told we will get a bonus / health care/ and a pension we pay into ( no contribution from them). The contract says it is PERMANENT! I know it is daliy rates because I have seen the agreement letter that the agency sent to the UK company.

[eternalnomad]

Actually I'm not sure that this is strange, if you are employed by a body shop calling itself a software house. One reason not to be so employed.

fair point expat - but its the "Dodgy Agency Ltd" that is taking double rate not "Legit Software House Ltd"

In my permie days,the consultancy I worked for (truly as a permie) were charging me out at at least twice per day what I was earning, however this was none of my concern as I was a permie with the rights of a permie.

[Phoenix]

Not sure I understand!
Are you permy but contracted to a client site by your employer?

[expat]

After you started you found out the agency were taking twice as much as you were getting.....did you not think this was also strange for a permanent position ?

Actually I'm not sure that this is strange, if you are employed by a body shop calling itself a software house. One reason not to be so employed.