Reply to: Beer !

[sappatz]

beer

Mmmmmm.

are you talking about the brown mud they serve in uk and irish pubs ?

[Sysman]

Cheers OH. I thought "eye damage" was caused by something else.

That's simple. Can't pull a bird because you smoke, so have to resort to "other means" :-)

[Francko]

What I had in mind was breathing the mould spores, but yes those are good points, and I suppose reluctantly I'd also have to agree with Fungus's point about bell curves although his list of ailments is way over the top (eye damage and body weakening FFS!)

BTW, just a linguistic niggle as you're not a native English speaker, "courage" means bravery in a commendable cause. Bravery in something cheeky or unwelcome, the meaning you obviously intended, would be called "nerve" or "gall".

Cheers OH. I thought "eye damage" was caused by something else.

[sasguru]

What I had in mind was breathing the mould spores, but yes those are good points, and I suppose reluctantly I'd also have to agree with Fungus's point about bell curves although his list of ailments is way over the top (eye damage and body weakening FFS!)

BTW, just a linguistic niggle as you're not a native English speaker, "courage" means bravery in a commendable cause. Bravery in something cheeky or unwelcome, the meaning you obviously intended, would be called "nerve" or "gall".

Actually Fungus is right. If anything his list of ailments isn't large enough. I have seen the data in its raw form. You don't even to have to run a statistical analysis. Pick a smoker and by middle age the odds are they'll have a catalogue of health complaints. Eye disease and a lowered immune system are indeed common in smokers.

[OwlHoot]

Perhaps. But you still run the same risk of eating a mouldy orange whether you smoke or not. I agree that there is an exagerated histeria around, with people who feel like they are stronger and better human beings and healthier (hint: look for Threaded who must weight at least 200kg and has the courage to blame people of "irresponsible" and "wrong" choices) just because they never smoked and they feel like they have nothing else to watch themselves after, but at this stage we can't deny the damage that objectively smoking does. Let's just try to have the most scientific approach to the subject, I believe that it's probably the best to lead people to make a reasoned choice about smoking or not smoking and also about all the other health hazards and risks, which many no-smokers seem to forget about it inside their fake glass ceiling.

What I had in mind was breathing the mould spores, but yes those are good points, and I suppose reluctantly I'd also have to agree with Fungus's point about bell curves although his list of ailments is way over the top (eye damage and body weakening FFS!)

BTW, just a linguistic niggle as you're not a native English speaker, "courage" means bravery in a commendable cause. Bravery in something cheeky or unwelcome, the meaning you obviously intended, would be called "nerve" or "gall".

[Francko]

And she is now in her late eighties, still going strong, living proof that all this hysteria about smoking is a load of hogwash! A mouldy orange in a fruit bowl is far more risky to health, short term and long term, than chain smoking a pack of Capstan Full Strength!

Perhaps. But you still run the same risk of eating a mouldy orange whether you smoke or not. I agree that there is an exagerated histeria around, with people who feel like they are stronger and better human beings and healthier (hint: look for Threaded who must weight at least 200kg and has the courage to blame people of "irresponsible" and "wrong" choices) just because they never smoked and they feel like they have nothing else to watch themselves after, but at this stage we can't deny the damage that objectively smoking does. Let's just try to have the most scientific approach to the subject, I believe that it's probably the best to lead people to make a reasoned choice about smoking or not smoking and also about all the other health hazards and risks, which many no-smokers seem to forget about it inside their fake glass ceiling.

[Fungus]

My aunt went from 60 Senior Service (filterless) a day, which she'd smoked for twenty or more years, down to 1 after breakfast. Now _that_ is iron will power.

And she is now in her late eighties, still going strong, living proof that all this hysteria about smoking is a load of hogwash! A mouldy orange in a fruit bowl is far more risky to health, short term and long term, than chain smoking a pack of Capstan Full Strength!

Ever heard of statistics and bell curves? Some people can survive with almost no damage after decades of smoking. Others succomb and die early. It's in part genetic. But on average smoking causes serious illness such as heart disease, lung disease, eye problems, high blood pressure etc. And of course smoking weakens the body making it less likely to survive other not directly related illnesses. Anyway one example is meaningless. There are people who do not smoke who die of lung cancer. There are others who smoke like chimneys with little illness. On their own such examples prove nothing.

In fact it was extremely hard to proof conclusively that smoking caused serious illness. In part because the pro-smoking groups were so heavily funded and could buy the best lawyers.

[OwlHoot]

The current thought is that it is best to just stop. If you can't it is because you are weak.

Actually I think it is best not to have ever started, but they did, because they were weak.

My aunt went from 60 Senior Service (filterless) a day, which she'd smoked for twenty or more years, down to 1 after breakfast. Now _that_ is iron will power.

And she is now in her late eighties, still going strong, living proof that all this hysteria about smoking is a load of hogwash! A mouldy orange in a fruit bowl is far more risky to health, short term and long term, than chain smoking a pack of Capstan Full Strength!

[Francko]

20 on a normal day. Up to 60 on weekends. I used nicotine gum for the first 3 weeks though. Nicotinell 4mg Fruit gum is best.

PS You need a mental arsenal of tricks to avoid the feeling that you are giving up something. You're not. It's all gain.

I agree, but to my experience all serious smokers (>20) who dropped immediately picked it up after a month or two. I think gradually it's the best way. And gives you time to appreciate the achievement. I am already happy because I don't have to smoke one after another and many times I already start feeling I don't need one more. I don't know what's worse if it's the physical or psychological dependency. The psychological component is very tough as I see some people who can't quit even if they only smoke 3-5 cigs a day, that can be too much of a physical dependancy, could it?

[bfg]

If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all.

Yes, but it is bad for your health, the BMA say so:
"In 1995, in recognition of the specific risks of excessive drinking in a single session, the sensible drinking message was changed to focus on daily guidelines. It suggests:
- a maximum intake of 2-3 units per day for women and 3-4 for men, with two alcohol-free days after heavy drinking; continued alcohol consumption at the upper level is not advised"

2 pints is the absolute maximum and over that you are a BINGE DRINKER and therefore harmful to the rest of society.

BINGE DRINKERS cost the police and NHS god know how many billions each year. Large sums in property damage is caused by these druken thugs. Untold amounts of council tax go to clean up their urine, litter and vomit from the streets. The cost to employers in lost working time and productivity is staggering.

It MUST be true the BMA say it is and they are DOCTORS.

[threaded]

If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all.

[bfg]

Should be banned

The perils of 'secondary drinking' are self-evident.
http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/drugsalcohol81.htm
http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs.../bingedrinking

There you go, proof alcohol harms others.

Some drunks have as many as FOUR pints before they go out on the rampage.
How can we enjoy a night out in the pub with with our friends when there are all these BINGE DRINKERS around.

The safest thing all round is to ban drinking in pubs.

[threaded]

Agreed, real men take the pain. Does not the Butterfly struggle hard to escape the chrysalis?

[sasguru]

It's the only way - everything else is a sham IMHO. Worked for me after trying every gimmick way in the book. Show's yer serious and not just mincing about with patches, gum & accupuncture, real men go cold turkey!

Disagree with that. All the scientific research shows that NRT has a higher rate of success. Anyway, horses for courses. Whatever works, works.

[snaw]

Are you telling me that you were smoking more than 20 cigs and you stopped overnight?

It's the only way - everything else is a sham IMHO. Worked for me after trying every gimmick way in the book. Show's yer serious and not just mincing about with patches, gum & accupuncture, real men go cold turkey!