Reply to: Nervousness from Scotland Yard

[DimPrawn]

Everyone talks sense for the first few posts.

**** off, I never did.

[TimberWolf]

Stick around, you talk sense.

Everyone talks sense for the first few posts.

[DimPrawn]

Indeed, UK debt peaked at over 200%, but this was just after WW2 - the money spent had been used to win a war, and the post-war reconstruction pushed GDP growth to bring the debt back down. Very different situation now, much harder to see where that kind of growth would come from.


Not all money wealth is illusory. Some of it is backed up by real, actual wealth (goods, services, knowledge etc). But in a credit bubble, money wealth rises far more quickly than the real wealth that backs it up (people borrow from the future by taking on debt). Normally, these debts have to be paid back by those that borrowed them. This time around, they won't be - the liabilities have been transferred to the state, meaning that those that borrowed the money will simply walk away, and leave tomorrow's taxpayers holding the bag.

Stick around, you talk sense.

[The_Equalizer]

A bit of historical perspective on debt would be useful too. For example, when Macmillan used the phrase "never had it so good" in 1957, UK debt was substantially over 100% of GDP, and about twice what it is now.

Freamon, you could argue that. I'm listening. But merely to state that something was bought with "illusory" wealth, is hardly an argument that it was paid for by someone else. All money wealth is illusory.

That haven't had it so good bit was more a reflection of the present day standard of living, partly based on cheap energy and advances in technology. Macmillan's statement was indeed correct, however, Europe's growth through the European Coal and Steel Community had been even more impressive.

[Freamon]

A bit of historical perspective on debt would be useful too. For example, when Macmillan used the phrase "never had it so good" in 1957, UK debt was substantially over 100% of GDP, and about twice what it is now.

Indeed, UK debt peaked at over 200%, but this was just after WW2 - the money spent had been used to win a war, and the post-war reconstruction pushed GDP growth to bring the debt back down. Very different situation now, much harder to see where that kind of growth would come from.

Freamon, you could argue that. I'm listening. But merely to state that something was bought with "illusory" wealth, is hardly an argument that it was paid for by someone else. All money wealth is illusory.

Not all money wealth is illusory. Some of it is backed up by real, actual wealth (goods, services, knowledge etc). But in a credit bubble, money wealth rises far more quickly than the real wealth that backs it up (people borrow from the future by taking on debt). Normally, these debts have to be paid back by those that borrowed them. This time around, they won't be - the liabilities have been transferred to the state, meaning that those that borrowed the money will simply walk away, and leave tomorrow's taxpayers holding the bag.

[Ignis Fatuus]

I have a sneaky feeling that no one has any real handle on the amount of paper money/debt that's actually floating about out there. Ironically, a lot of this has been made possible because of the rise of computing power.

Then again, if you look in terms of history we really have never had it anywhere near as good as this.

A bit of historical perspective on debt would be useful too. For example, when Macmillan used the phrase "never had it so good" in 1957, UK debt was substantially over 100% of GDP, and about twice what it is now.

Freamon, you could argue that. I'm listening. But merely to state that something was bought with "illusory" wealth, is hardly an argument that it was paid for by someone else. All money wealth is illusory.

[The_Equalizer]

Or you could argue that the above benefits were bought with illusory wealth created by an out-of-control financial sector (encouraged by the govt) and that since the bubble has burst and the liabilities have been transferred to the public sector, today's young people will end up paying for them in the future through higher taxes and weaker public services, with no chance of ever obtaining those benefits that older generations enjoyed at their expense.

Not that I'm arguing that of course.

I have a sneaky feeling that no one has any real handle on the amount of paper money/debt that's actually floating about out there. Ironically, a lot of this has been made possible because of the rise of computing power.

Then again, if you look in terms of history we really have never had it anywhere near as good as this.

[Freamon]

Young people have been shafted, but not by baby boomers stealing from them. When you're suffering, it's easy to blame those who didn't suffer the same way, but it doesn't stick and it doesn't solve anything.

House owning: young people are not holding the can for the fact that baby boomers bought a house. If they can't afford to buy a house, that's not because baby boomers bought a house, it's because there aren't enough houses and/or the young people don't have enough money.

Pension holding: young people are not holding the can for the fact that baby boomers saved for a pension. They are only holding the can for the state pension for baby boomers, as baby boomers did for their parents' generation. But I suspect they'll renegue on that.

Grant paid: young people are not holding the can for the fact that baby boomers got grants to study. Boomers' parents' generation paid for that.

University educated: see Grant paid.

Or you could argue that the above benefits were bought with illusory wealth created by an out-of-control financial sector (encouraged by the govt) and that since the bubble has burst and the liabilities have been transferred to the public sector, today's young people will end up paying for them in the future through higher taxes and weaker public services, with no chance of ever obtaining those benefits that older generations enjoyed at their expense.

Not that I'm arguing that of course.

[Ignis Fatuus]

It's becoming apparent that young people are beginning to realise how truly they've been shafted and left holding the can for the scoffing house owning pension holding grant paid university educated baby boomer ****eruppers until they die and Scotland Yard are getting worried.

The good news though is that police numbers are being cut too, so police officers can join in the riots this time.

We would have got away with it too if it hadn't been for those kids.

Young people have been shafted, but not by baby boomers stealing from them. When you're suffering, it's easy to blame those who didn't suffer the same way, but it doesn't stick and it doesn't solve anything.

House owning: young people are not holding the can for the fact that baby boomers bought a house. If they can't afford to buy a house, that's not because baby boomers bought a house, it's because there aren't enough houses and/or the young people don't have enough money.

Pension holding: young people are not holding the can for the fact that baby boomers saved for a pension. They are only holding the can for the state pension for baby boomers, as baby boomers did for their parents' generation. But I suspect they'll renegue on that.

Grant paid: young people are not holding the can for the fact that baby boomers got grants to study. Boomers' parents' generation paid for that.

University educated: see Grant paid.

[DimPrawn]

It's becoming apparent that young people are beginning to realise how truly they've been shafted and left holding the can for the scoffing house owning pension holding grant paid university educated baby boomer ****eruppers until they die and Scotland Yard are getting worried.

.

WHS.

[AtW]

That's terrible, where are the water cannons?

Who needs water cannons when you can nuke whole site from orbit?

That's the only way to be sure...

[gingerjedi]

Not sure if this has already been posted or not:

That's terrible, where are the water cannons?

[AtW]

Time to get that shotgun licence...

You mean those crippled semi auto shotguns with 4 shots max?

[Freamon]

Not sure if this has already been posted or not:

[OwlHoot]

It's becoming apparent that young people are beginning to realise how truly they've been shafted and left holding the can for the scoffing house owning pension holding grant paid university educated baby boomer ****eruppers until they die and Scotland Yard are getting worried.

The good news though is that police numbers are being cut too, so police officers can join in the riots this time.

We would have got away with it too if it hadn't been for those kids.

In ten years I can see older couples and singles, with no kids living at home, being turfed out of any house large enough to raise a family, to make room for young families. It'll get that bad, either by punitive council tax (once they've done the long-planned detailed survey) or simply by fiat.

If you're rattling about in a house larger than your needs when Labour next get in - watch out!