Reply to: Which PM course to take up. Switch from Techie to PM.

[doodab]

I understood what you said, it isn't the same as what you say above although it might be what you meant. I maintain however that you are incorrect. An IT Manager is not a Programme or Interim Management contractor for a start.

Neither is a plumber, but I believe we can compare the rates for plumbers with those for programme managers & IT contractors.

To blame poor rates for technical skills on the lack of judgement of those in IT Management roles is naive to say the least. There are many factors for this, most far bigger than the one you mention. Besides, technical people need to realise it's money/sales that make the world go round, not some fantastically crafted piece of code.

IT is generally (and rightly) perceived as a cost, it doesn't generate revenue. As with most costs, businesses want to reduce it as much as possible, and this frequently results in false economies, such as entering into unsuitable outsourcing deals because they seem cheap, but result in disruption to the business, or corner cutting in development that saves money early on but results in expensive rework later on. Someday the management responsible may come to realise that using the cheapest technical staff doesn't automatically mean you'll achieve the lowest cost, but until then downward pressure on rates will continue.

Well designed and implemented IT systems might not make the world go round, but it's hardly naive to know that doing a job properly the first time will save you having to do it twice, or understand that a little bit of foresight at the birth of something that might have to evolve and integrate with as yet unimagined other systems for 5-10 years can save a lot of hassle (and time and money) later on.

Lastly, I disagree on the rates bit but agree on quantity of roles.

Well, what sort of rates are you talking about? And how many billable days per year can such a bod achieve?

[SofaKingdom]

You have misunderstood what I said. I meant that a significant proportion of IT managers have little technical understanding and are unable to judge quality effectively, hence they shop purely on price, thus increasing the demand for low cost technical people.

I would also contend that although the average rate for a programme manager might be higher, the volume of such roles is significantly lower than for technical jobs and were one to cherry pick a comparable amount of senior technical roles you'd find the rates were a lot more similar.

I understood what you said, it isn't the same as what you say above although it might be what you meant. I maintain however that you are incorrect. An IT Manager is not a Programme or Interim Management contractor for a start. To blame poor rates for technical skills on the lack of judgement of those in IT Management roles is naive to say the least. There are many factors for this, most far bigger than the one you mention. Besides, technical people need to realise it's money/sales that make the world go round, not some fantastically crafted piece of code. Lastly, I disagree on the rates bit but agree on quantity of roles.

[doodab]

Are you drunk? I never mentioned outsourcing or off-shoring. Last I read we were talking about program and interim management paying more than techie skills and you claimed there were an abundance of these skills about If that's the case, rather than debate outsourcing, explain to me why these roles offer better rates than "craftsmen."

You have misunderstood what I said. I meant that a significant proportion of IT managers have little technical understanding and are unable to judge quality effectively, hence they shop purely on price, thus increasing the demand for low cost technical people.

I would also contend that although the average rate for a programme manager might be higher, the volume of such roles is significantly lower than for technical jobs and were one to cherry pick a comparable amount of senior technical roles you'd find the rates were a lot more similar.

[SofaKingdom]

Which skills? The ones that have overseen wholesale outsourcing of corporate IT to predominately foreign firms who often fail to deliver what was expected? Or the ones that have seen the bulk of public sector IT projects cost more and deliver less than planned?

Are you drunk? I never mentioned outsourcing or off-shoring. Last I read we were talking about program and interim management paying more than techie skills and you claimed there were an abundance of these skills about If that's the case, rather than debate outsourcing, explain to me why these roles offer better rates than "craftsmen."

[doodab]

I don't make the rules but surely if the UK is so full of these skills then simple laws of supply and demand would make the rates for these roles very low and that is simply not the case?

Which skills? The ones that have overseen wholesale outsourcing of corporate IT to predominately foreign firms who often fail to deliver what was expected? Or the ones that have seen the bulk of public sector IT projects cost more and deliver less than planned?

[SofaKingdom]

That's because the UK is full of managers with no understanding of the craft of software development who think that techies should be cheap as chips and can't tell a good one from a bad one. It's the same mindset that gave rise to the tesco extra value sausage.

I don't make the rules but surely if the UK is so full of these skills then simple laws of supply and demand would make the rates for these roles very low and that is simply not the case?

[doodab]

I haven't seen a techie gig that pays more than programme or interim management in the last 10 years.

That's because the UK is full of managers with no understanding of the craft of software development who think that techies should be cheap as chips and can't tell a good one from a bad one. It's the same mindset that gave rise to the tesco extra value sausage.

[SofaKingdom]

If it's money you're looking for then PM gigs pay nowt much these days.

I haven't seen a techie gig that pays more than programme or interim management in the last 10 years.

[sasguru]

I'll show my arse in Trafalgar Square.

Last time that happened people thought it was a full solar eclipse.

[Pogle]

Shouldn't you be shopping... At the Trafford Centre....<shudder>

- ended up in town instead, school uniform shopping.
But I managed to get a cheap, sparkly and no doubt crippling, pair of heels

[pmeswani]

If it's money you're looking for then PM gigs pay nowt much these days.

At the moment they aren't... but when the recovery comes, PM's will be in demand again. (Hopefully!)

[norrahe]

*cough* PM in the room!! *cough*

I'm looking to make a move from Techie to PM. Motivation? Money.

If it's money you're looking for then PM gigs pay nowt much these days.

[singhr]

It's my username and real name. I was born in Birmingham. I am one of the many that are not tee-total.

I can't vouch for the Birmingham bit can confirm that my doppelganger is not tee-total.

[Greatlookinguy]

You're not really selling yourself well. It seems you're selling point is "I'm cheaper than an experienced PM".
Saving £100/day is tiny compared with the cost of an inexperienced PM screwing up a project - that could be £100s or £1000s per day.

Not having a go at you, but since a PM is managing multiple people and therefore handling £1000s/day in terms of expenditure, I can't see why you'd take the risk for a small saving.

True. TBH, with what thunderlizard said earlier in this thread d000hg (and here I am assuming he/she is far, faa..aar more experienced in this field than I am.. [as are you ]), with the kind of jump in career lines I am looking at, at the moment, that is all I can hope for. Either that or get into a junior PMO permie role and "grow" in the organisation for a few years and THEN make the jump into contract world. I have neither the time nor the inclination to follow that route (got some personal plans).

Is it impossible to make it in the field this way?

I just hope that the kind of roles that thundelizard mentioned.. i.e. low paid, hard working, very low budget etc etc... are actually out there. I don't mind putting in the hard work and long hours.

But if the answer is a resounding NO and that nothing can come of my efforts, be it certifications or communication skills, well, I guess I will just have to keep looking.

Do you have a better suggestion?

[Scrag Meister]

It's my username and real name. I was born in Birmingham. I am one of the many that are not tee-total.

Confirmed.